Value Betting in PL draw (tourney)

[Murakawa]

Okay, this is more an excuse to ignore my game and to use the converter finally but, given my situation, and the fact that this is the third hand of the tourney and all I know is that coolnslick draws to come draws and min bets when he makes them, how much should I have bet and raised?

Tournament, Pot Limit 5 Card Draw (10/20) (converter)

SB (1650), Seat 1
BB (1510), Seat 2
UTG (1470), Seat 3
Hero (1470), Seat 4
Button (1400), Seat 6

SB posts 10. BB posts 20.

Hero is CO with [As 3c Jh Ah Ac]

Round 1: (30)

<font color="green">UTG calls. </font><font color="red">Hero raises 40 to 60. </font><font color="#666666">Button folds. </font><font color="green">SB calls. </font><font color="#666666">BB folds. </font><font color="green">UTG calls. </font>
SB takes 3. UTG takes 2. Hero discards Jh.

Hero has [As 3c Ah Ac 5d]

Round 2: (200)

<font color="red">SB bets 60. </font><font color="#666666">UTG folds. </font><font color="red">Hero raises 80 to 140. </font><font color="green">SB calls. </font>

Pot: (480)

Results: (in white)

<font color="white">Total pot 480 | Rake 0

SB had [7s 7d 2d 2c 4h].
Hero had [As 3c 5d Ah Ac] and won (480) with three of a kind, Aces.
</font>

This is a much bigger topic, of course. In a ring game it's a different situation, but was there more money in this hand for me? (I think so, but I'm not sure where).

[Biggle10]

I think the raise is good, but could probably be a little larger. Most of the bad players in these tournaments can't fold smaller trips.

OK, so now for my thread hijack. Let's talk about opening raises. I see lots of players do a 'standard' 3x raise, but I think this is wrong for draw. Correct me please if my thinking is incorrect.

IIRC, In Hold'em a 3x raise is the smallest raise necessary to give improper odds for the blinds to call with any two cards. The same can be accomplished with a min raise in draw. This also has two other side benefits.

1. Since hand strengths run further apart, the best hand predraw generally is the winner so we want to encourage weaker hands to call. So let's say hero min raises his AA, a player might be encouraged to call with a weaker hand.

2. On the the same token, if we min raise something like AA, and it gets raised and reraised behind us than we can let it go saving us some bets.

Thoughts/comments?

[Murakawa]

yes, but a min raise in a lower level PL and in the tourneys won't put people off their small pairs or come draws IMO. that's why I'm raising! When I have a hand I don't want 3 guys trying to outdraw me, especially if they'll only check -fold unimproved (I want to get paid off for this hand!)

On the other end of the spectrum ,if they're so willing to call my Aces up raise with Jacks to try and outdraw me, why not make it a pot sized bet? You might run into a better hand, but how often? You need to build your stack!

A redskelt friend suggested to push big pairs (or better) HARD early to build a stack, they'll forget that 5 to 1 to oudraw isn't very good and even a check fold is good. If they bet then you know you're beat but it was worth the try!

I guess it depends on who you're against, then.

That was a strange ramble, anything coherent come out?

I'm going back to my tournament!!!

[greenage]

Murakawa,

Thanks for using the converter, I was beginning to wonder. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Is there any reason why you discarded the Jh instead of the 3c? Did it not matter and you just tapped one?

[Tom Bayes]

I'm making the 3xBB raise early in the Stars tourneys. Biggle is right in that theoretically a min-raise is a decent bet in PL Draw (unlike NLHE), but I'd rather not have to play AA against 4 opponents and end up in a guessing game about my hand if I fail to improve (or did some schmuck make trip sixes on my aces up).

Later in the tourney, I'll tend to drop my standard opening bet to between 2-2.5xBB until I'm short-stacked and need to make a stand with my hand or steal the blinds/antes, where I'll pot it.

Oh, and I think Mura's raise was a bit too small. Most of the fish in the early part of these tourneys love to pay off. Hell, I haven't gotten so much post-swap action with my legit pat hands in my life.

[flafishy]

I would have raised about two-thirds or more the size of the pot. So a raise of about 180 or more. Seems to me at that point, if you're going to get a call with 80, you'd probably also get one with 180.

[Murakawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Murakawa,

Thanks for using the converter, I was beginning to wonder. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Is there any reason why you discarded the Jh instead of the 3c? Did it not matter and you just tapped one?

[/ QUOTE ]


Doesn't matter unless I guess I put him on a pair of jacks in which case I would rather draw to my 3. Sometimes you want to take more cards out of he deck so that you can catch one of his out but it's not a big deal in this situation.

[Murakawa]

I know I overbet postand I should have just bet the pot predraw.

Should I have CRaised? Bet less?

Tournament, Pot Limit 5 Card Draw (10/20) (converter)

Hero (1480), Seat 5
BB (1320), Seat 6
UTG (1600), Seat 1
MP (1440), Seat 2
CO (1480), Seat 3
Button (1680), Seat 4

Hero posts 10. BB posts 20.

Hero is SB with [Kd Kc 7d Jc Kh]

Round 1: (30)

<font color="red">UTG raises 40 to 60. </font><font color="#666666">MP folds. </font><font color="green">CO calls. </font><font color="green">Button calls. </font><font color="red">Hero raises 180 to 240. </font><font color="#666666">BB folds. </font><font color="green">UTG calls. </font><font color="#666666">CO folds. </font><font color="green">Button calls. </font>
Hero discards Jc. UTG takes 3. Button takes 4.

Hero has [Kd Kc 7d Kh 5c]

Round 2: (800)

<font color="red">Hero bets 420. </font><font color="#666666">UTG folds. </font><font color="#666666">Button folds. </font>

Pot: (800)

[Big Limpin]

re: 3BB open?
I'd still bet 3BB vs minraise because that is what they are used to calling

re: hand #1
Bet bigger. He likes his hand (drew 3, but leads into you, the aggressor). There arent that many hands he will call a small raise but not a big raise. Go for the gusto.

re: hand #2
I would lead out REAL small (minbet?). It looks weak, and has two merits. i) you may get a call from unimproved pair, or the draw 4 guy pairs his ace and calls (monies you wont get betting out strong), and ii) If the draw 3 guy spikes trips, he is likely to come overtop of you you, then you can drop the hammer and take a much bigger pot. He might just flat call you if he improves if you lead as stong as you did.

[Murakawa]

When you slowplay trips you're looking for a reraise predraw which you can call , draw 1 to, and act like you're bluffing. These games are loose passive though, and this is unlikely, IMO