5cd limit hand

[Murakawa]

Tournament: Limit 5 Card Draw (800/1600) (converter)

SB (7705), Seat 5
BB (10705), Seat 6
UTG (9820), Seat 1
MP (21450), Seat 2
CO (11325), Seat 3
Hero (10850), Seat 4

SB posts 400. BB posts 800.

Hero is Button with [Qh 6s 6c Qd 9s]

Round 1: (1.50 SB)

<font color="#666666">UTG folds. </font><font color="#666666">MP folds. </font><font color="red">CO raises. </font><font color="red">Hero raises. </font><font color="green">SB calls. </font><font color="#666666">BB folds. </font><font color="green">CO calls. </font>
SB takes 2. CO takes 2. Hero discards 6s 6c 9s.

Hero has [Qh Qd 4s 3s 2h]

Round 2: (5.00 BB)

<font color="red">SB bets. </font><font color="red">CO raises. </font>
Hero?

Pot: (9.00 BB - 14400)

Wha do I do?

I thought awhile before drawing three, figuring these weak-tight players all had trips.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

given that they both drew two i would have drawn 3 as you did. on the river its a no brainer fold. you didn't improve and you're faced with two bets.

[kurto]

Note: I don't play Limit (just PL) 5cd... is it normal in limit to reraise with just 2 pair? (In PL, a reraise is usually trips).

Was this reraise isolating a loose raiser or what? Just curious... (I suspect this could be a key difference between how limit and PL play)

[DOMIT]

[ QUOTE ]
Note: I don't play Limit (just PL) 5cd... is it normal in limit to reraise with just 2 pair? (In PL, a reraise is usually trips).

Was this reraise isolating a loose raiser or what? Just curious... (I suspect this could be a key difference between how limit and PL play)

[/ QUOTE ]

Normal RR yes (unless you know that a player is so passive that he doesn't raise with less than trips--I have known some especly on Planet). There are some that won't raise with less than 2 pair, but still QQs-up is a good 2pr hand. I'd 3bet this all day (in limit).

Since you're a PL player, you have to remember in limit you can't protect your hand as well. If hero just calls, BB has odds to call for any OESD or flush draw. Part of the strategy of the RR is to kill odds of others behind; not to mention that a good Draw player will open-raise with AA or KK (and given the raise came from the CO, very likely lesser hands).

[Big Limpin]

ya i think the 3bets is pretty standard, in limit, you cant get hurt as bad by jamming based on hand ranges. qq66 stacks up quite necely against what CO is probably raising with. on the other hand, SB calling 3 bets cold is bad news...

about breaking 2pr though, i'm not so sure about this one. if there is any chance that your opponets DONT have trips, then this is potentially catostrophic?

I mean, im saying they probably DO, one or the other of them, have you beat, but you really arent improving your odds much:
1) d3 to QQ, 12.7% chance of QQQ+
2) d1 to QQ66, 8.5% chance of boat.
So if you need to improve, drawing 1 still gives you ~2/3rd the chance of improving, and its a better hand (666QQ&gt;AAA&gt;QQQ!!)

If you KNOW KNOW KNOW they have trips, then yes, go for d3, but i think if there is ANY chance they are donking AAK at you, you should keep QQ66. You wouldnt have to break the winner very often to forgo all your extra % improvement.

I think SB has trips here 4/5 times, maybe not 9/10 times. how sure are you?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

given all the preflop action, sb almost always has to have trips here. CO could have been raising light with a 3 straight flush (trying to represent trips) but got caught, but he could very well have trips too. with the presense of both of them only drawing two, two pair has to be an automatic break here.

[Big Limpin]

yeah i am coming around to it.
i havent been doing this in my games, and perhaps thats a leak?
im just so used to seeing someone keep 3 cards, and its a big pair + kicker. i agree here (with 2 villains) its unlikely they both dont have trips. still possible tho, and drawing only 1 may get a free showdown.

Remember you only improve an extra 1 time in 25 by breaking.
Do you think its possible QQ66 is the best hand here &gt;4% of the time? Also consider how often they hold AAA/KKK, so you hitting trip queens is no good, while QQQ66/666QQ is.

I dont know...i feel like im trying to justify this, and i agree its VERY likely one or both has QQ66 beat, but breaking still seems wrong.

OP, this was standard? and should i be doing the same in future?

[Murakawa]

waht about after the draw?

[Notjitsu]

I'd keep the QQ66 and draw 1. I'm not breaking it, and I'm folding it postdraw unimproved.

I like to draw to hands that I'm confident will be best if possible. I'd feel good firing the 3rd bet with QQQ66. I'd feel crappy calling the 2nd bet with QQQ.

[Big Limpin]

[ QUOTE ]
waht about after the draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the thing. i think this benefits d1.

if you d1, there much greater chance of it being checked to you post (you are effective button), where you can check unimproved. its not often, but sometimes you will have best hand.

of more consequence, when you make a boat, yo9u have eeeesy raise, where making QQ is meh, prolly raise, have fun getting 3bet, y'know?


honestly, i'm really sketchy on this situation. if enough people piped up and agreed with your breaking this hand, in this situation, i could be swung around to your way of thinking...im just iffy right now; i certainly dont think breaking or keeping can be far wrong, its definitely close. my gut says not to break. i base that on...nothing but a feeling. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]