Collusion in poker - can it actually acomplish anything?

[antistuff]

All these posts seem to be about holdem. Two players just sharing hole cards at omaha or omaha8 could gain a very sizeable edge. Of course they would have to be pretty good to begin with to take advatage of this.

[SplawnDarts]

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All these posts seem to be about holdem. Two players just sharing hole cards at omaha or omaha8 could gain a very sizeable edge. Of course they would have to be pretty good to begin with to take advatage of this.

[/ QUOTE ]It does make sense you could acomplish a little more in omaha. However, you'd need a rediculous set of signals to make something like that work. Most of the holdem guys I decoded usually had 5 and always played 2 to broadway.

In omaha, you'd quickly start looking like a 3rd base coach.

[antistuff]

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[ QUOTE ]
All these posts seem to be about holdem. Two players just sharing hole cards at omaha or omaha8 could gain a very sizeable edge. Of course they would have to be pretty good to begin with to take advatage of this.

[/ QUOTE ]It does make sense you could acomplish a little more in omaha. However, you'd need a rediculous set of signals to make something like that work. Most of the holdem guys I decoded usually had 5 and always played 2 to broadway.

In omaha, you'd quickly start looking like a 3rd base coach.

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i was thinking online. live this would be pretty much imposible. you might be able to pick a few spots though

for omaha8 for example

1) i have aces
2) i have an a2
3) communicate the suit of the an ace in your hand

these three things alone i feel would add to your edge, mostly be allowing you to sometimes draw to king high flushes with impunity and make preflop raises and folds that you wouldnt normally make.

[SplawnDarts]

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i was thinking online. live this would be pretty much imposible. you might be able to pick a few spots though

for omaha8 for example

1) i have aces
2) i have an a2
3) communicate the suit of the an ace in your hand

these three things alone i feel would add to your edge, mostly be allowing you to sometimes draw to king high flushes with impunity and make preflop raises and folds that you wouldnt normally make.

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I can see that I suppose - I thought about the possibility of K-high flush draws, and the possibility of accounting for the A and possibly K of the flush suit in PLO to facilitate bluffing. Seems like a small but real edge.

[bbartlog]

Seems to me the biggest edge from collusion would be in a pot limit game. In this case the two colluders don't need to go back and forth, each putting more money into the pot, in order to raise the stakes when one of them has the nuts; instead one just has to put in a pot-sized bet (presumably not a huge amount for the first PSB) in order to prime the pot for the other. This would be especially effective if hero had to act after one villain but before the other. First villain can then fold to second villain's huge reraise, but the damage to hero is done (assuming he called the first raise of course).
Agree that collusion in other situations is more questionable in terms of advantage.

[Notjitsu]

I always thought the biggest advantage would be that the non-cheaters can only get action from one cheater at a time. You will never have the two cheaters chasing the same flush. You won't ever have both cheaters calling on the river.

If Bob has AA, cheater 1 has JJ and cheater 2 has 88...flop comes AJ8...instead of tripling up, Bob will only double up. Thats a pretty big deal.

[Red_Diamond]

Richard Marcus has writen a bit about his collusion escapades in card rooms. Though he doesn't quite go into the mathematics of it.

Anyhow, for anyone who doubts the power of collusion, just look at case history of Puggy Pearson. Here you have a world class pro, one of the best, who got his whole bankroll taken in just one summer by a collusion team put together for the sole purpose of busting him (and anyone else at his table).

If the best can't prevent going broke vs colluders, what hope is there for anyone else?

[doh742]

OF COURSE IT DOES!!!

First off, this is a sin on a forum as dedicated to poker math as this forum, but math is only part of poker. That taken into consideration, there are other aspects of colluding that make it profitable. With two people representing strong hands, it is easier to command a table and force out weaker action and take blinds and a bet or two.

Second, why are we only looking at this as a two person team. Bump up the guys on the inside to 5 or 6 at 10 man table. Now it doesn't matter who wins. You know 12 cards dealt, whats in the deck and whats on the board, the only thing you don't know is the what the other 3 or 4 players have on them. At this point you are just attacking the players not on your team and whoever gets his money it doesn't matter because it is split 5 ways. Even without colluding this is powerful. If you played it straight, with 5 players of high skill, who probably have theory of poker memorized like a priest does the bible, they would kill the other four joes who sat down.

3. This is easier to do online. There is no signaling necessary. Just use instant messenger or call you friends cell phone. As for the sites checking ips, hell my brother and I play from the same house on the same site, from the same ip address at one of the 3 biggest sites out there. So don't bet the house that you are safe online. Do you know how hard it would be to monitor 20,000 players table playing patterns. They will only do it if you bring a complaint to them. Also, I have played many cash games, and most of the time, i know half the people at the table after a two weeks at the site.

Here is the bottom line, I am going to reference Rounders. If you can't tell who the sucker is in the first 5 minutes, you are the sucker. To change it, if you can't see how collusion can be a powerful tool, then you couldn't use it your advantage anyway. It requires a different thought. Not everything works out by the numbers. Math works everytime because its a static, controlled universe. There is no variance to the equation x + 5 = 7 X is always 2. In the real world, it is not so clear cut. You can't prove collusions advantage because it doesn't show up as a sole mathmatical gain. Only part of the dominance collusion ensures, if done right, can be demostrated by math. The other aspects, knowing when two or three colluders can start a raising spree and force top two pair out because the straight came, even though they don't have it, and take his blinds, raised flop bet and initial call on the turn, can't be shown in an ev play.

Trust me it works. If you have played online poker, you have been cheated by a collusion team. Online poker practically begs cheats to come clean out peoples money.

And, to ramble for a couple more lines...chip dumping in mtts is powerful too. Don't think small, think 10 guys dumping to 1 in at the world series. 10 professional class players, in the wsop, who probably did well and increased there stack, dumping utlimately to one guy, you could get 20, 40, 100 times your stack. And trust me, millions is enough to divide 10 ways. Hell, the choice could be made on day three to dump it all toward one guy.

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I always thought the biggest advantage would be that the non-cheaters can only get action from one cheater at a time. You will never have the two cheaters chasing the same flush. You won't ever have both cheaters calling on the river.

If Bob has AA, cheater 1 has JJ and cheater 2 has 88...flop comes AJ8...instead of tripling up, Bob will only double up. Thats a pretty big deal.

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I agree that this is the most clear and obvious example. If cheater A and B are on cell phones, or MSN, etc...then each knows that that other has hit his set, hit his flush draw, hit his str8 draw, etc.

At 6 max it would be very helpful for me to know the hole cards of another opponent (without his knowledge). As such, I can't see how it would not also be profitable for 2 of the 6 players to know each other's hand.

I'm not paranoid, but I have to believe there are players colluding hand information online. Why? Because the can. That is all that has been ever required for some people to cheat. Add in the fact that they are cheating "strangers" (less guilt), and that it is hard to get caught, and you have even more reason to worry.

[6471849653]

When ever both of those players are in the pot they can play it in a way that makes more money and loses less money, even win pots by raising the winner out. They can take more risks with it or not, the only problem being that they can't be on the same table too often.