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  #1  
Old 09-28-2007, 02:39 AM
kamana kamana is offline
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Default Settle this Poker Theory / Sklansky bucks debate

NL 100: <font color="red"> Player A</font> gets K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10x in a row, while <font color="blue"> player B</font> gets A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10x in a row. They go all in every hand and <font color="red">player A</font> (KK) <u>wins them all</u>. There is no rake. Player A is +$1000.

They agree to go to NL 1,000: <font color="red">Player A</font> gets A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and <font color="blue">player B</font> gets K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. They go all in and <font color="blue">Player B wins</font>. Now they have the same amount of money from when they started.

What is the EV of player A ?
EV of player B ?
Is he running good , bad , or neutral ? <font color="red"> </font>
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  #2  
Old 09-28-2007, 02:43 AM
kamana kamana is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

follow up question:


NL 100: <font color="red"> Player A</font> gets K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3x in a row, while <font color="blue"> player B</font> gets A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3x in a row. They go all in every hand and <font color="red">player A</font> (KK) <u>wins them all</u>. There is no rake. Player A is +$300.

They agree to go to NL 300: <font color="red">Player A</font> gets A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and <font color="blue">player B</font> gets K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. They go all in and <font color="blue">Player B wins</font>. Now they have the same amount of money from when they started.

What is the EV of player A ?
EV of player B ?
Is he running good , bad , or neutral ? <font color="red"> </font>
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  #3  
Old 09-28-2007, 07:30 AM
NoTurns NoTurns is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

KK vs AA -&gt; 20% vs 80% (the equitty I'll use)
BB is Big Bet (meaning 2x the Big Blind)

Situation 1:
EV of Player A = 10x-40BB + 1x40BB = -360BB
EV of Player B = 10x40BB - 1x40BB = 360BB
Player A is running good, player B is running bad.

Situation 2:
EV of Player A = 3x-40BB + 1x40BB = -80BB
EV of Player B = 3x40BB - 1x40BB = 80BB
Player A is running good, player B is running bad.
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  #4  
Old 09-28-2007, 09:28 AM
rufus rufus is offline
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Default Re: Settle this Poker Theory / Sklansky bucks debate

[ QUOTE ]

What is the EV of player A ?
EV of player B ?
Is he running good , bad , or neutral ?

[/ QUOTE ]

EV stands for 'expected value' it doesn't make sense to talk about 'expected value' after a hand has been played.

Considering that Player A has done a lot better than expected in that scenario, I would say that he's running well. However, it's not at all clear what 'running well' and 'running poorly' really mean, so, really, that probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense here.
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  #5  
Old 09-28-2007, 09:46 AM
jono jono is offline
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Default Re: Settle this Poker Theory / Sklansky bucks debate

No player has greater or less EV than the other player. BBs are inconsequential NoTurns. I posted the math in MSNL.
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  #6  
Old 09-28-2007, 01:10 PM
PantsOnFire PantsOnFire is offline
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Default Re: Settle this Poker Theory / Sklansky bucks debate

For NL100 the EV for player A is 20% of the money wagered - the cost of his bets. 2000*.20 - 1000 = -$600. For NL1,000 the EV for player A is 80% of the money wagered - the cost of his bets. 2000*.80 - 1000 = +$600.

1. Total EV for Player A is: neutral

For NL100 the EV for player B is 80% of the money wagered - the cost of his bets. 2000*.80 - 1000 = +$600. For NL1,000 the EV for player B is 20% of the money wagered - the cost of his bets. 2000*.20 - 1000 = -$600.

2. Total EV for Player A is: neutral

The results indicate that both players ran neutral for this trial.

I kinda did this in my head at first and then worked it out thinking there was trick here somewhere. I can't find anything of note, are you sure this is your question?
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  #7  
Old 09-28-2007, 01:17 PM
PantsOnFire PantsOnFire is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

[ QUOTE ]
KK vs AA -&gt; 20% vs 80% (the equitty I'll use)
BB is Big Bet (meaning 2x the Big Blind)

Situation 1:
EV of Player A = 10x-40BB + 1x40BB = -360BB
EV of Player B = 10x40BB - 1x40BB = 360BB
Player A is running good, player B is running bad.

Situation 2:
EV of Player A = 3x-40BB + 1x40BB = -80BB
EV of Player B = 3x40BB - 1x40BB = 80BB
Player A is running good, player B is running bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are going to use this type of notation then you need to account for the fact that the second game is NL1000 so situation 1 should look like this:

Situation 1:
EV of Player A = 10x-40BB + 1x 400BB = 0BB
EV of Player B = 10x40BB - 1x400BB = 0BB
Player A is running neutral, player B is running neutral.
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  #8  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:41 PM
m3dude m3dude is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

400 bb? at nl 1000 1000 is 100 bb.
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  #9  
Old 09-28-2007, 03:45 PM
NoTurns NoTurns is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

@jono:
Depends on what you want to know. Do you want to know the EV in BB or the EV in $. Since different hands were played at different stakes the only way to determine if any player was running good or bad is by looking at the EV in BB when the money went in in comparison to the actual BB won.
@PantsOnFire:
No, you don't need to take in account the fact the hands were played at different stakes. If you want to determine your EV in BB it doesn't matter at what stakes the hands were played. A full buyin is 50 Big Bets at any stakes.

If you look at it from the other way around. Can you really look yourself in the face and honestly say a player who goes allin with KK 11 times vs AA, and wins 10 of them, is running neutral?
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  #10  
Old 09-28-2007, 04:31 PM
jono jono is offline
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Default Re: Sklansky Bucks - Important Clarification needed

That is exactly the thing NoTurns, BB do not matter at all. BB is deceiving because it can be .02 or $2000. It is not constant. Whereas dollars is always a constant measure.

Imagine this. You have a piggy bank full of coins. You are trying to measure how much money you have. But instead of adding it up by nominal value .01 , .05 , .10 you are instead adding it up by mixing it altogether and counting number of coins. Get it?
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