Preflop Decision Against Two Maniacs

[LuckyStrike]

Here's a situation that came up late last night at a very strange yet awesome table. I was really unsure of what to do here so I'm interested in the thoughts of everyone here.

UTG+1 is a TAG who I think plays pretty well.

CO is an incredible maniac, one that only comes along once in a blue moon. His stats are 91/72/1.7 with a WTSD of 57. I've been holding over him in the pots we've played and he's paid me off with some ridiculous hands.

Button is an uninteresting weak/tight player.

SB is another maniac, although this guy is not as idiotic postflop. He can bluff it up with the best of them but he can fold when it's obvious he's beat. His stats are 71/44/1 with a WTSD of 47.

BB is a nut peddler who likes to coldcall two or three against these maniacs. He's not very good in my opinion.

Basically, these two maniacs were raising/3betting preflop in well over half the pots. Knowing all this, how would you proceed?


PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="blue">Hero ?? </font>

[Hobbs.]

raise.

[Bob Sacamano]

Not sure it matters much here, just get in the pot somehow.

[danzasmack]

I'm with bob. Seems like if i get in the pot it should be for 2 or 3 bets anyway. If UTG+1 is good then raise and get him out of there before he makes us fold the best hand or something.

[Nibster]

Raise so UTG and possibly Button (if CO doesn't raise) don't come in with a weak A.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure it matters much here, just get in the pot somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, I think it matters. raise, hope co 3balls and gets it HU.

[gehrig]

u should be willing to take the worst of it preflop to play pots against these guys. raising a hand like KTs shouldnt even be a question

[Unguarded]

Normally, raising KTs UTG is fairly profitable and a no-brainer. Out of position (PF that is) against 2 maniacs, I tend to think it isn't. You are often getting capped, you are in huge trouble if either the TAG or the weak/tight player join the hand, and you're going to end up in many brutal situations post-flop (getting sandwiched between 2 raisers with your good draws and a pot equity deficit, or feeling completely lost when you have middle pair or a gutshot in a huge pot.) I would be more patient UTG in this case. My opening range would be something like TT+, KQs, AJs, and AQ+... all hands that I am comfortable playing against a very likely 3-bet or cap in these circumstances.

[climber]

easy raise assuming UTG+1 is at all aware of your range UTG.
if he has really adjusted as well then just limping is fine.

[Bob Sacamano]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure it matters much here, just get in the pot somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]

nah, I think it matters. raise, hope co 3balls and gets it HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand doesn't perform that much better HU than multiway, and even if did, you're going to have to be taking K-high to showdown out of position a lot for "getting it HU" to be the best play. Which involves a [censored] of guessing.

Edit: I don't hate raising at all and I think the play can go either way, but with this specific hand, I'm fine playing it in a multiway pot, whether it be for multiple bets or not.