3 bet gets 4 bet deep in Sunday Million

[LearnedfromTV]

Fine, the terminology doesn't matter. Whether it's an overbet or not (and obviously he has no other 4bet option), the point is that we can threebet/fold more frequently with 450k than 400k because he's making a bigger error when he shoves into our big hands.

(In neither case are we committed, rounding to the reraise to 100k and the preflop pot to 25k, we're getting 575:350 on the one and 525:300 on the other. We're not to 2-1 until our stack size is 325k)

[T_Mac]

[ QUOTE ]
lftv is a really good poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

"b - it's nice for him to have to think about two ways he can get owned when raising light."

Great point, a lot of the time when I'm raising light I really hate it when someone cold calls in position, its a lot harder to read then someone 3 betting me in an obvious spot.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, whether to threebet AQ (and any other hand that can profitably flat call, including AA) is a function of his fourbet shoving range, not his raising range, unless he is frequently going to flat call your threebets (which I doubt he will). Assuming he will very rarely flat call a threebet, the question of his too-frequent raises and your threebetting range is entirely one of frequencies.[ QUOTE ]

This is really good.

[Requin]

Holy [censored] it must be like printing money to reraise this guy with air, if you can't snapcall this shove.

Also if you all think we have to fold here than I prefer a rr to like 75K over just a call.

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]

Depends what I got. In general I hate getting reraised, and I try to discourage them. That's because I generally fold all day.

However, if someone has a very strong hand, they will get more chips on average from me with a call. I'm a lot more likely to put in more chips postflop than preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think AQ qualifies as a "very strong hand" here, it has zero showdown value on a pot played down to the river over a series of bets. It likely is best preflop, but you're going to be facing a continuation bet most of the time, and you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time. Are those of you who advocate a call going to float every missed flop? If so, you are turning AQ into a delayed rather than immediate bluff, and you're putting your whole stack at risk to do so. You also are going to get buried a small percentage of the time you hit the flop, probably equal to or even greater than the small percentage of the time that you'll be able to stack Villain when you make a slightly larger big hand than him.

I think a point that gets overlooked in the whole "turning it into a bluff" school of thought is that the presence of the A and Q in your hand make it significantly less likely that you are going to face a 4bet. Reraising with AQ is therefore more +cEV than reraising with 72o.

I think both players are deep enough here that 3bet/folding by Hero, and calling a 3bet by Villian are both reasonable plays.

I can confirm that Justin folds to reraises all day. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[shaundeeb]

todd wth these stacks callng PF and calling like 85% of flops and floating is very very +EV vs most laggy opp

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
todd wth these stacks callng PF and calling like 85% of flops and floating is very very +EV vs most laggy opp

[/ QUOTE ]
but some of these opponents are the same guys who will 4 bet shove basically any time they think their opponent might be weak and they have FE, so 3/bet and instacalling is usually better vs these villains

[Bakes]

I dont think this line is bad at all. villain sounds like dario or loosefer, i feel like our 3bet just reeks of a play and will induce a 4bet shove, especially if you took your time in reraising.

[mikeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, whether to threebet AQ (and any other hand that can profitably flat call, including AA) is a function of his fourbet shoving range, not his raising range, unless he is frequently going to flat call your threebets (which I doubt he will).

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether to 3-bet AQ or not depends on whether it is more profitable than flatcalling (or folding). So in determining the cEV of a 3-bet, you need to consider the raising range as well as his 4-betting range, you can't just ignore it. And when determining the cEV of a flatcall, you have to consider the tendencies of your opponent's postflop play as well as his opening range.

Consider an extreme example where your oppt is raising 100%, yet your opponent's 4-betting range was AQ+/99+, then a 3-bet would be hugely profitable (as it would w/ any 2) yet you would be correct to fold to a 4-bet if you held AQ. Obviously you would rather have a crap hand when you are bluffing, but if you happen to have a good hand that will be turned into a bluff, it doesn't mean you shouldn't bluff 3-bet, especially if your opponent has a postflop advantage (which may be positional or one of skill).

[Ship Ship McGipp]

lots of writing in this thread, might look at it later