observing your opponent

[JackSevenSuited]

I'm just wondering how other players go about making observations on their opponents (betting patterns and tells) Basically how you would go about analyzing a tell or betting pattern and using the information you extracted to play optimally against that opponent. I know the answer seems obvious, you observe and remember. However i am really having trouble with this part of my game.
I know the answer may seem obvious to some but i hope you can look at the situation from my position (been playing under a year) and truly attempt to help me in some way. I'm still learning and i'd really appreciate any suggestions.

[Bad Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just wondering how other players go about making observations on their opponents (betting patterns and tells)...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no great expert at this, but the first advice I'd give is to start out by only trying to do a little bit at a time. Don't try to see into everyone's soul at first--just watch one guy and notice if he's doing something really obvious. Two of the very most obvious betting patterns are coming into too many pots, and raising before the flop too often. If you notice either of these in your next game, great--you've taken your first baby step. If not, be patient and don't try to force tells out that aren't there.

Oh, one other thing--in online play, I sometimes draw a little table diagram with pencil and paper and track how often everyone comes into the pot by making tally marks. Yes, the same thing could be done easier with Poker Ace HUD, but it does wonders for my level of concentration.

[GiantBuddha]

Watch every single hand and try to put every opponent on a hand. Then see what they showdown and test your accuracy. See where you went wrong. Gain confidence from when you're right.

[Bad Lobster]

[ QUOTE ]
Watch every single hand and try to put every opponent on a hand. Then see what they showdown and test your accuracy. See where you went wrong. Gain confidence from when you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't be done. Trying to learn by starting out with the impossible is a certain recipe for failure in any human endeavor.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically how you would go about analyzing a tell or betting pattern and using the information you extracted to play optimally against that opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody's play generally falls into one of four quadrants where one axis is aggressive/passive and the other axis is tight/loose. Put people into quadrants and keep shifting your read on where they are based on what you see at the table.

Aggressive means more inclided to bet or raise than to call. Passive means more inclined to call than bet or raise.

Tight means playing few hands. Loose means playing many hands.

Over the course of a session, categorize people as tight/aggressive (TAG), tight/passive (rock), loose/aggressive (LAG), and loose/passive (fish or calling station).

Each of these types of players are variations on a sterotype. If you get the type in your head, and if villain isn't changing gears, then you can use this sterotype to help make decisions in a hand. For example, if a Rock reraises preflop for 1/3 of his stack, then he has AA or KK. So, you might be able to fold QQ. If a particularly wild LAG reraises preflop for 1/3 of his stack, then he has TT-AA,AT/AJ/AQ/AK,and maybe worse, then maybe you can push QQ preflop and expect to be ahead most of the time he calls your all-in.

Once you get the hang of labeling TAGs, LAGs, Rocks, and Fish, then you might start watching how aggressive/passive a player is post flop vs preflop. The pokertracker numbers that people post quickly give a picture of a player with just 3 numbers: % Voluntarily Put $ in Pot (loose/tight); % preflop raise (aggressive/passive preflop); post flop (bet+raise)/call total aggression (aggressive/passive postflop).

Now instead of 4 stereotypes, there are 8. Each has a sterotype. PokerTracker, by default, has some nice icons for each type. I like to think of the icons. TAA, for example, is a bag of money or an eagle. LPP, on the other hand, is a fish.

TAA
TAP
TPA
TPP
LAA
LAP
LPA
LPP

Often, a player is aggressive preflop but less aggressive post flop, or vice versa.


Phil Helmuth has a book in which he gives all kinds of animals as devices for categorizing players. I didn't like his book, but the description of player types might be useful for you as a starting point.

[mvdgaag]

For online play all the above is great. An even better and certainly more complete explanation on hand reading can be found in this threat.

For live play I always try to look for the classic tells (from Mike Caro), but also blinkrates and where people put their hands when waiting for you to decide. What really bothers me about Caro is that he often interprets uncomfortableness with bluffing, while some people are uncomfortable holding a huge hand. Keep this in mind. Also many people that have seen Mike Caro's videos (or read his books) know these tells and will reverse them. Don't fall for this. How and especially where people place bets on the table helps me a lot as well. Some people tend to say how much they bet a lot when they are bluffing ro holding a weak hand and are mostly quiet when they're holding the nuts. I could go on and on, but I'd advice you to watch the DVDs by Annie Duke (How to beat the big boys) and Mike Caro (Pro poker tells). That will be more than enough to start out. They won't help you at first, but you get to recognise a lot of these tells slowly while you practise at it.

A final tip: Start observing the players to your direct right and left at first. Than add the loose players at the table, because you are playing against them most often and they are probably the players you are going to win the most from. You can't possibly observe them all at once.

GL

[paddymcg21]

Upon reading this thread I was going to write something but the very last 2 sentences of the last post sums up the advice i'd give. MVD is on the money, it's definitely in your interests to study the players to ur right and left as they will more than likely be the players in the pot with u most often. God luck.

[Hope2play]

When you are fairly new to poker, there is so much going on at the table, it's impossible to watch everyone and find trends and patterns, keep track of your cards, bets, raises, bluffs, you get the point. I like Don Harrington's advice. Just watch one or two not the entire table. Some online sites allow you to make notes on certain players which helps.

[Easy17]

there are three ways to play AK from mid position

Overbet - just push (aggro/bluff type player)

Underbet - Limp/donk raise and hope for reraise (trappy)

Standard - 3-4x the BB raise (ABC poker)

I try to classify players according to bluff, trap, or standard. The good players will mix up thier play but most hands will default to what they are most comfortable with.

[IzanDV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically how you would go about analyzing a tell or betting pattern and using the information you extracted to play optimally against that opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody's play generally falls into one of four quadrants where one axis is aggressive/passive and the other axis is tight/loose. Put people into quadrants and keep shifting your read on where they are based on what you see at the table.

Aggressive means more inclided to bet or raise than to call. Passive means more inclined to call than bet or raise.

Tight means playing few hands. Loose means playing many hands.

Over the course of a session, categorize people as tight/aggressive (TAG), tight/passive (rock), loose/aggressive (LAG), and loose/passive (fish or calling station).

Each of these types of players are variations on a sterotype. If you get the type in your head, and if villain isn't changing gears, then you can use this sterotype to help make decisions in a hand. For example, if a Rock reraises preflop for 1/3 of his stack, then he has AA or KK. So, you might be able to fold QQ. If a particularly wild LAG reraises preflop for 1/3 of his stack, then he has TT-AA,AT/AJ/AQ/AK,and maybe worse, then maybe you can push QQ preflop and expect to be ahead most of the time he calls your all-in.

Once you get the hang of labeling TAGs, LAGs, Rocks, and Fish, then you might start watching how aggressive/passive a player is post flop vs preflop. The pokertracker numbers that people post quickly give a picture of a player with just 3 numbers: % Voluntarily Put $ in Pot (loose/tight); % preflop raise (aggressive/passive preflop); post flop (bet+raise)/call total aggression (aggressive/passive postflop).

Now instead of 4 stereotypes, there are 8. Each has a sterotype. PokerTracker, by default, has some nice icons for each type. I like to think of the icons. TAA, for example, is a bag of money or an eagle. LPP, on the other hand, is a fish.

TAA
TAP
TPA
TPP
LAA
LAP
LPA
LPP

Often, a player is aggressive preflop but less aggressive post flop, or vice versa.


Phil Helmuth has a book in which he gives all kinds of animals as devices for categorizing players. I didn't like his book, but the description of player types might be useful for you as a starting point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post

As a footnote, watch how much money is in the pot. When there's a lot of money in the pot there will be more value betting and in small pots there will be more tricky playing. Always calculate pot-odds when you're out of an hand. This will give you a lot of information about the strengt of your opponents.

As always in poker-skills: Take the baby-steps. I started out with just thinking about pre-flop hands. When I got pretty acurrate at that I started with post-flop hands, without thinking about starting hands. Combine those two and you'll get very accurate.