Is This Cheating?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
A very gray area. I hear people always say that poker is a Gentleman's game. What is the difference between seeing one of his cards if the dealer mistakenly flashes it when dealing it? Or what if someone mucks their cards and mistakenly flashes one of them and you're the only one still in the hand who saw it?

So if playing online and someone is stupid enough to install a trojan horse program from an Email I send them that installs a program that allows me to see their cards, is that not cheating?

If you can see someone's cards, then I don't see anyway how that can not be considered cheating.

Poker Tells on the other hand are part of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

A key element for me is whether I set up the situation ( like the trojan or marking the cards etc) or whether the knowledge gained was inadvertant. I'm a bit biased because I not only play professionally but also for my own pleasure and it spoils my pleasure when people show me their cards.
DS's example is nice because it does fall right on the line for me although I can respect others that have opinions on either side.

In bridge I would definitely tell them to hold their cards back and I wouldn't take advantage if they didn't.

luckyme

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I think the answer has to be yes.

If the question was changed that you were born with xray vision and could see his cards all the time would that be cheating? I'm sure most of you would switch your answer to yes. I don't see how changing the frequency of what's happening will alter the definition.

Some people are probably saying it's not cheating because you're not directly involved. Well what if you knew someone else was marking the cards, would taking advantage of them be cheating even though you didn't do it? The answer has to be yes.

The only debatable point is if you consider hiding this information as part of the game that is up to the player. If you define the rules that way then taking advantage of his incompetence isn't cheating. Otherwise it is, but on a scale of 1-10 it's barely a 1.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
How are you seeing the cards reflected through their glasses unless they have them held up near their eyes? Are we playing movie-style 5 card draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
David,

I can’t figure out if you watch Seinfeld or not. A few things you posted were right out of the show, e.g. Good Samaritan Laws.

Anyway, if you are familiar with the show, then repeat after me:

“Serenity now.”

RJT

[andyfox]

I think cheating involves deliberately violating the rules of the game in order to profit from the violation(s). I don't see where the rules have been violated in either case.

[David Sklansky]

[ QUOTE ]
I think cheating involves deliberately violating the rules of the game in order to profit from the violation(s). I don't see where the rules have been violated in either case.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he has Parkinson's disease and sometimes exposes them to seat 3,its OK to look? Is it OK to move to seat 3 for that purpose. What about lowering your chair?

[freehat]

Obviously the first one is cheating and the second isn't. Anyone who says different is a moron.

[andyfox]

I don't think X-ray vision would be cheating. You would simply have a superior skill that would enable you to play better. You've done nothing unnatural or fraudulent to violate the rules (such as marking the cards, or straining to see your opponents' cards). If you had ESP, and used it to your advantage, would that be cheating?

[andyfox]

I think if you go out of your way to look, it's wrong; lowering your chair would be the same as leaning over to look or assuming some other unnatural position to look.
What about if I move to seat 3 because seat 2 plays poker so poorly that I know what he has as if he were exposing his cards to me?

What about moving to seat 3 because you get a better view of a player in seat 1 who holds his cards a certain way when he has a pocket pair and another way when he doesn't? Or because he gets a certain look on his face with hand X and a different look with hand Y?

Suppose there was a player who only played A-A or A-K and he got a certain look on his face with A-A and a different one with A-K. Would it be cheating to move to a seat where you could see his face? Would this be different than actually seeing his cards reflected in his glasses?

[gimmetheloot]

Neither is cheating. Not by a longshot.

To whomever said it: if you tell your friend about his reflecting glasses, it is because he is your friend. Its still his fault, and you did nothing wrong in the game to be considered cheating.

[andyfox]

The cards are dealt face down because one's opponents are not supposed to know what they are. But once they are in your hands, it's your obligation to keep your opponents from knowing what they are. If you show them to him, or reveal them to him by your actions, is there really a difference? Suppose you raise and accidentally flip up his your pocket aces. Has your opponent cheated by folding his pocket kings?