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#71
03-11-2007, 11:58 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How did you not get his stack? [/ QUOTE ] Well the guy covered hero 5 times over, but we know what you are tying to say. [ QUOTE ] How did he get a look at 11 outs twice for a total cost of 1200? [/ QUOTE ] That's an interesting riddle. Did they agree to run it twice on the turn??? I'm trying to figure out how he could have gotten a look at 11 outs twice. Maybe you can explain? Yeah, completely clueless. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know what's up your ass, PO, but his post was clueless. He bet 1200 on the flop, and checked the turn, so Villain saw the turn and river cards (11 outs twice) for 1200. Re: My first comment about not getting his stack--Villain had an overpair, and picked up a flush draw on the turn, and quite possibly would've stacked off with it at various points in the hand. ArmenH's conclusion from the results is that he played great and got action from JJh, when in fact he played the hand miserably on the flop, and consequently missed tons of value in this spot, which would've served to make up for the times where he's been outflopped in similar spots. In the end, it looks to me like OP benefitted from the fact that Villain didn't realize what an incredible nit he was, and had a hard time putting him on a hand as big as KK in light of his idiotic post-flop line. He likely read his weak flop bet as either an absolute monster or a bluff, since 1200 there with KK makes very little sense. 
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#73
03-11-2007, 05:53 PM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm trying to figure out how he could have gotten a look at 11 outs twice. Maybe you can explain? [/ QUOTE ] I don't know what's up your ass, PO, but his post was clueless. He bet 1200 on the flop, and checked the turn, so Villain saw the turn and river cards (11 outs twice) for 1200 [/ QUOTE ] i think what he means is that villain did not pick up the flush draw until the turn, so he did not have 11 outs on the flop (only 2), and therefore did not see 11 outs twice. rather saw 2 outs once, then 11 outs once.
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#74
03-11-2007, 06:39 PM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How did you not get his stack? [/ QUOTE ] Well the guy covered hero 5 times over, but we know what you are tying to say. [ QUOTE ] How did he get a look at 11 outs twice for a total cost of 1200? [/ QUOTE ] That's an interesting riddle. Did they agree to run it twice on the turn??? I'm trying to figure out how he could have gotten a look at 11 outs twice. Maybe you can explain? Yeah, completely clueless. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know what's up your ass, PO, but his post was clueless. He bet 1200 on the flop, and checked the turn, so Villain saw the turn and river cards (11 outs twice) for 1200. Re: My first comment about not getting his stack--Villain had an overpair, and picked up a flush draw on the turn, and quite possibly would've stacked off with it at various points in the hand. ArmenH's conclusion from the results is that he played great and got action from JJh, when in fact he played the hand miserably on the flop, and consequently missed tons of value in this spot, which would've served to make up for the times where he's been outflopped in similar spots. In the end, it looks to me like OP benefitted from the fact that Villain didn't realize what an incredible nit he was, and had a hard time putting him on a hand as big as KK in light of his idiotic post-flop line. He likely read his weak flop bet as either an absolute monster or a bluff, since 1200 there with KK makes very little sense. [/ QUOTE ] i agree with your reasoning. my posts above basically say that hero should be doubling up here by betting close to pot on the flop and committing himself to the hand unless check raised by some super nit who only does it with a set. still, villain only has 2 outs on the flop. so he doesn't get to look at 11 outs twice. i guess that is what the other guy is being nit picky about.
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#75
03-13-2007, 02:45 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
still, villain only has 2 outs on the flop. so he doesn't get to look at 11 outs twice. i guess that is what the other guy is being nit picky about. [/ QUOTE ] Heh very true--not nit picky at all. My bad.
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#76
03-13-2007, 03:36 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe six people called 20 BBs preflop. WTF. How about just pushing the flop? There's a shitton of money in that pot. [/ QUOTE ] push flop, seriously? this feels excessive and -ev, i stll can't think of a great line for op to take when checked to on flop - imo most flop c/r's are beating op, basically forcing him to decide whether or not he wants to get it ai on flop b/c i dont see ppl in this scenario making a move into such a large field. but by pushing you let your opponents play perfectly.
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#77
03-13-2007, 04:40 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I can't believe six people called 20 BBs preflop. WTF. How about just pushing the flop? There's a shitton of money in that pot. [/ QUOTE ] push flop, seriously? this feels excessive and -ev, i stll can't think of a great line for op to take when checked to on flop - imo most flop c/r's are beating op, basically forcing him to decide whether or not he wants to get it ai on flop b/c i dont see ppl in this scenario making a move into such a large field. but by pushing you let your opponents play perfectly. [/ QUOTE ] That was my first response, too, but then I thought about how many times I've seen this push paid off by top pair etc., even from a tight player. I sometimes just can't get into this mindset, but I suspect a super-solid (not meant in a bad way) player like creed makes this type of play quite a bit. Care to share any thoughts, creed? Does it go beyond, "People are idiots who will call?"
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#78
03-13-2007, 04:48 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I can't believe six people called 20 BBs preflop. WTF. How about just pushing the flop? There's a shitton of money in that pot. [/ QUOTE ] push flop, seriously? this feels excessive and -ev, i stll can't think of a great line for op to take when checked to on flop - imo most flop c/r's are beating op, basically forcing him to decide whether or not he wants to get it ai on flop b/c i dont see ppl in this scenario making a move into such a large field. but by pushing you let your opponents play perfectly. [/ QUOTE ] i always see people post "by doing this it'll let people paly perfectly", but if that was true, wouldn't a push here with air be ridiculously powerful since like 90% of the time no one will have a FD or set? and since obviously no one suggests pushing here with air it seems like betting the flop hard seems to be the ticket.
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#79
03-13-2007, 09:48 AM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I can't believe six people called 20 BBs preflop. WTF. How about just pushing the flop? There's a shitton of money in that pot. [/ QUOTE ] push flop, seriously? this feels excessive and -ev, i stll can't think of a great line for op to take when checked to on flop - imo most flop c/r's are beating op, basically forcing him to decide whether or not he wants to get it ai on flop b/c i dont see ppl in this scenario making a move into such a large field. but by pushing you let your opponents play perfectly. [/ QUOTE ] i always see people post "by doing this it'll let people paly perfectly", but if that was true, wouldn't a push here with air be ridiculously powerful since like 90% of the time no one will have a FD or set? and since obviously no one suggests pushing here with air it seems like betting the flop hard seems to be the ticket. [/ QUOTE ] The vast majority of that 90% of the time that they don't have a set you beat them anyway and they fold...so they "play perfectly".
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#80
03-13-2007, 01:55 PM
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Re: 10/25NL at Foxwoods.........
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I can't believe six people called 20 BBs preflop. WTF. How about just pushing the flop? There's a shitton of money in that pot. [/ QUOTE ] push flop, seriously? this feels excessive and -ev, i stll can't think of a great line for op to take when checked to on flop - imo most flop c/r's are beating op, basically forcing him to decide whether or not he wants to get it ai on flop b/c i dont see ppl in this scenario making a move into such a large field. but by pushing you let your opponents play perfectly. [/ QUOTE ] i always see people post "by doing this it'll let people paly perfectly", but if that was true, wouldn't a push here with air be ridiculously powerful since like 90% of the time no one will have a FD or set? and since obviously no one suggests pushing here with air it seems like betting the flop hard seems to be the ticket. [/ QUOTE ] The vast majority of that 90% of the time that they don't have a set you beat them anyway and they fold...so they "play perfectly". [/ QUOTE ] people dont play perfectly they call w/worse hands too
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