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#1
11-23-2007, 02:05 AM
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\"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
Instead of derailing a few other threads with this discussion I want to have it here.
I see this line used all the time in strat threads (or the variation "If you fold the river you should just fold the turn"), but I question if it's a theoretically sound piece of advice. Why can't I call the turn and then get more information on the river and change my mind? Why does a decision on one street mandate that I make the same decision on a future street? example hand 150bb stacks, 6 handed MP raises to 4bbs, folded to you in the BB and you call with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Flop T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 8bbs) You check, Villain bets 7bbs, you call [/b]Turn:[/b] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (pot 22 bbs) You check, Villain bets 19 bbs, you call River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (pot 41 bbs) You check, Villain bets a lot, you fold. The river deuce doesn't change anything really, but I think we're ahead on the turn often but very rarely ahead on the river. In a situation like this can you profitably call the turn and still fold river depending on the card/his action? thoughts? 
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#2
11-23-2007, 02:11 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
IMO "If you call the turn you have to call river" sucks as strat advice. I think it should be "don't call the turn unless you know what to do on the river."
Usually that can be interpolated as dont call unless you can call because if you cant call on the river then bet-fold is usually a better line on the turn than check-call. V gets maximum play with his positional advantage when you check-call the turn, and if he understands this then he will be betting the river lightly knowing you will have to fold. So you end up folding the best hand more often, which totally sucks.
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#3
11-23-2007, 02:17 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
"If you call the turn you have to call river"
that line of thinking tilts me SO hard, and i constantly find myself writing posts trying to debunk it. it is hardly ever used correctly, and most of the those using it seemingly fail to realize that RANGES CHANGE ON THE RIVER, and not based just on the river card, but more importantly based on the action!
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#4
11-23-2007, 02:20 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
If you so choose to play this hand this passively (fine under certain circumstances) then yes, you need to call this river. I have absolutely no clue as to how you feel you are ahead on the turn yet behind on the river given that you have supplied no read. And the only read that would make me maaayyybe take this line is if his 3 barrel frequency is minimal to non existent.
Just to clarify, 'calling the turn = calling the river' does not always hold water. But in your example, it clearly does given that card. If you said the river was a J-K then obviously we can 'change our mind'.
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#7
11-23-2007, 02:49 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
The 'call turn then must call river' is only sound when 100% of villains turn betting range bets the river. This is clearly not the case in this example, so the rationale doesn't make sense.
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#8
11-23-2007, 02:51 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
[ QUOTE ]
The 'call turn then must call river' is only sound when 100% of villains turn betting range bets the river. This is clearly not the case in this example, so the rationale doesn't make sense. [/ QUOTE ] Bingo. Most boring TAGs at these limits have no problem firing 1 or even 2 barrels. There aren't many that are capable of firing 3.
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#9
11-23-2007, 02:56 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
it's because when you make a turn call in a hand like this, you have to assume that villain is also going to bet river a huge portion of the time..so if you're not prepared to call a big river bet, you should fold the turn, rather than hoping they just chk behind on the river
EDIT: this hand isn't a prime example of that theory, but you should still expect him to bet the river a pretty good amount of the time
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#10
11-23-2007, 02:58 AM
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Re: \"If you call the turn you have to call river\" theory Q
This phrase is not applicable to your example hand.
It has more to do with calling a raise (not just a bet)(and after the flop has been bet as well) on the turn where it is very likely that both players already have a made hand. If your hand is good on the turn, it's good on the river. It's not a profitable play (ldo) to call a turn raise and fold rivers. It's like people expect to call the turn raise and have villain shut down or something when you are almost always facing a big river bet.
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