Folding KK Pre-flop

[B1gSexy]

All these hands were at 100NL btw.

[B1gSexy]

Here's an example hand. No reads on villain other than he has pretty solid stats.


Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $84.80
BTN: $38.05
SB: $112.50
BB: $82
UTG: $22.10
UTG+1: $103.05
MP1: $158.50
Hero (MP2): $357.75

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP2)
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $5</font>, Hero calls $5, 4 folds, UTG calls $4

Flop: ($16.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $21</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">MP1 raises to $34</font>, Hero calls $13

Turn: ($84.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

River: ($164.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero calls $40

[iponnet]

you should fold sometimes, you will get KK vs AA once every 5.5k hands or so, that means you should rarely fold but based on your reads you need to figure out when to fold in that rare occasion.

going AI with KK preflop 'everytime' is a leak, I have tried to get some seriouse discussion going on this issue in the strategy forum as to what stats to look at if you gona fold KKs preflop but got the usual crap like dont ever fold for 100bb, dont let people run you over blahblahblah. everyone just has to develop their own idea to whom and to which stats it should be folded to.

edited to say you played everystreet on above hand horribly....lol not counting the flop raise...

if you ever gona get away from AAs its gona be preflop so 3bet those KKs

[B1gSexy]

So fold the turn??

[Chargers In 07]

[ QUOTE ]
So fold the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]move down.

[Johnes Benjamin]

When I raise with KK I say in the chat "hey, I have KK so I'm calling if you shove" and then if they still shove I can totally fold.

[ship_it_trebek]

[ QUOTE ]
So fold the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]

3bet preflop and be able to fold KK against a solid player for 150bb effective stacks

[kindling]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise with KK I say in the chat "hey, I have KK so I'm calling if you shove" and then if they still shove I can totally fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jamie Gold syndrome? Tell people the truth about your hand, because no one ever believes you.

[Acevader]

[ QUOTE ]
In a typical "raise, hero 3-bets, villain shoves" scenario- you are -EV to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this as you know. Villains show up with QQ and sometimes AK here enough. IME.

Just from a maths point of view: Say at NL$200 with 100bb effective tight/solid UTG raises $8 and you hold KK in MP and 3-bet to $26. Villain then shoves all in and you have a decision for your stack. It's $174 to call and the final pot will be $397 (assuming $3 rake). We have $43.8% pot equity on our call.

If villains range is ONLY AA+KK we are screwed. However, if its AA+KK+QQ we have to call.

If villains range is AA+KK and half the combinations of QQ and half the combinations of AKs then it's about break even.

If villain ever (even rarely) chucks in some AKo or JJ type hands (perhaps he's tilted, perhaps he thinks you are 'at it', etc) then it's a very clear call.

I don't think there are many 4-bet pushers at NL$200 who's range is strictly and ONLY KK+ and for that reason I don't like a fold unless you identify a player that 100% is only playing that range. If you start to throw any combo's of QQ or AKs into the mix and you have to call.

I would also suggest that in the push situation I outline above you are, if anything, more likely to see a hand like AK since a lot of villains flat call a 3-bet with AA on the trap. There is also a very big advantage to them pushing say AKs in this situation.

Put yourself in solid thinking TAG villains position. You raise AsKs UTG to $8 and a solid TAG raises you to $26. What is solid TAG's 3-bet range likely to be? He respects our UTG raise so this is probably JJ+ and AK. JJ he probably mixes up between calling and 3-betting so it's maybe just half the combo's. How does AK fair against that range IF he calls with JJ+,AK+ all of the time we push - it's a 40:60 so we are not in good shape. However, villain won't call a push with all of that that range. He'll almost certainly fold JJ and AK leaving QQ+. Of that there are more remaining combinations of QQ than AA and KK and if he does call with QQ its a 50:50. Furthermore, he might actually fold QQ and, if he's you () he might even fold KK. We are only in truly terrible shape against AA.

In short villain won't have 3-bet here often enough with a hand that can call and beat us often enough to offset the advantage of taking down that $26 without showdown. Essentially UTG hero can use his image and the fact he has the final commitment decision in the hand (very important) to greatly increase the true value of AKs which is why he may well push it.

[Renton]

kk is foldable preflop in full ring games for 100bb

ive done it at least 10 times.