FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)

[IWEARGOGGLES]

And here I thought ALL of you MTT donkeys came from SNGs.

Whoops!

[Ansky]

I was never a sng player.

In fact, I'm down a lot at them.

[Pudge714]

As a SNG donkey I learnt very specific ranges due to the fact SNGs are constantly 50/30/20 and I played thousands of them. Getting in the same spot and with SNGPT doing a very good job estimating your $EV it becomes fairly easy to learn and apply ICM. In MTTs ICM only matters at final table. You final table a very small percent of your tourneys and play much less MTTs than people SNG pros play SNGs. Of those FTs most of the time you will not need ICM, when you use it will occur when there are weird stack sizes and you have a hand in a grey area where it is +CEV and -$EV. When this does occur you can not just memorize or learn ranges because there are so many different variables. Different stack sizes, ranges, payout structures etc.

[Clayton]

A9 absolutely crushes apestyles' range here, but not enough to compensate for the pay difference and ICM.

I think he needs like 88+ here to call, and maaaaybe AK.

w/ the pay structure the way it is, apestyles being as smart as he is re: ICM, and apesytles being drunk, ZJ123 has to accept the fact that there is no profitable way he can maneuver until the shortstack busts. You take your lumps and openfold KQ like its hawt.

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
A9 absolutely crushes apestyles' range here, but not enough to compensate for the pay difference and ICM.

I think he needs like 88+ here to call, and maaaaybe AK.

w/ the pay structure the way it is, apestyles being as smart as he is re: ICM, and apesytles being drunk, ZJ123 has to accept the fact that there is no profitable way he can maneuver until the shortstack busts. You take your lumps and openfold KQ like its hawt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had kind of a similar situation but sitting a bit shorter at my FT yesterday. 4 handed I think with big CL, 2nd in chips raises, I insta-shove 30BB, he snaps with AA (short stack had like 3BB) and says "ty"

Yah... that sucked... but anyways my point is knowing ICM is important, but so is not running into monsters [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[curtains]

for what its worth, I would never in a million billion years go allin with any 2 from the SB. I think that its terrible against ALMOST every opponent. Some will either be scared you will reraise so they will open too tight, and some will have too big an ego to fold to the big stack. You are just way too deep to do it here. Anyone who really thinks he should be doing this with any 2 when the players are about 50 BB deep and there are 4 BB's in the pot is too smart for their own good.

[Pudge714]

Curtains is once again right. Although the only thing I miss from playing sngs is shoving any two on the bubble knowing guys couldn't call. ICM isn't zero sum so it can be -ev for both.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains is once again right. Although the only thing I miss from playing sngs is shoving any two on the bubble knowing guys couldn't call. ICM isn't zero sum so it can be -ev for both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, just you were never 40 BB's deep in these spots in a SnG [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DJ Pattiecake]

what does this hand have to do with apestyles being drunk? you are playing this hand vs. the payouts

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
heh, I dont like my play very much either to be honest... But its so fun abusing bubbles, + on my 8th o9th belvedere and pineapple juice. I assumed he was familiar with icm and would need 99 or TT plus to call. Even with that assumption the risk vs. reward just isnt there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is familiar with icm you should be autoshoving with tape over your screen unless you think he's tightened up opening on the button to be super tight 3 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]I think ape is correct, his megapush over a stack that has a huge potential to hurt him was a mistake. I'm pretty certain he wouldn't make the same play on a Sunday final table.

Now, if he was playing a bot that always used ICM to decide whether to call, then okay. But people aren't bots, and you are making a mistake if you assume that they are always going to make the right play, even if they have the requisite knowledge. The person who was happiest to see ape's push was the short stack.

"familiar with ICM" and "always using ICM to make the mathematically correct decision" are two very different things.