Mr. Gatorade’s Lies cost me over 70k at Full Tilt

[sonneti]

So someone probably spent years creating a winning poker bot, dedicated hundreds if not thousands of hours programming it with data to play hands correctly. This bot is worth millions if it goes undetected, yet they all have the same timing tells? This does not make any sense.

Are there any AHK scripts that will make a players actions with the same time delay each hand?

Why have FTP only caught the bots now, why aren't they catching these things without the need for people to report them?

[blackize]

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I don't care WHAT evidence FT has...if they are going to confiscate funds, they have to allow some sort of reasonable appeal process or proper oversight. If they don't want to provide this, then they need to close the account and return the funds.

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No they don't. It isn't a trial, you do not have the right to anything in these cases. You agreed to it all when you clicked the button agreeing to their terms and conditions. If you don't like the way they have handled this then don't play there.

I don't know if beatme1 used a bot, but I trust that after the debacle letting nation's pals go they are looking to get things right this time. It also seems like beatme1 is leaving something out since every other one of these cases we hear about has Full Tilt emailing the user to let them know that their account is under investigation.

[blackize]

Sonneti, they may not have the same timing tells, but individual, unique timing tells. There are a number of reasons for these tells...without a delay then the bots would be quite obvious as they would be acting instantly each time, the bot software could be running on another computer linked to the playing computer causing a slight delay, or it could just be that the bot software is computation intense and just needs that time to make its decisions.

[Jorge10]

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Gramps, do you not understand game selection? You keep saying "not even once in x # of hands" etc ... if someone is disciplined and understands game selection, why would they even once sit with another shark?

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There are a number of holes in her/his story.

1) She doesnt use poker tracker.
2) She has 0 hands with the other players accused of being bots.

How does she know these other players who are also accused of being bots are good? She doesnt use poker tracker and has played 0 hands with them, so why would she avoid them? Game selection shouldnt be a factor here.

I have read the whole thread and the story of the OP is full of holes. Like the ones I mentioned above. There are also other factors missing from the other side. The most important factor that is missing is the $70,000. What happened to that money? Where people refunded or did FTP just keep it?

The OP has not addressed the most important point. Why didnt she/he play any hands with the other players accused of being bots? It makes no sense. Its not looking good for the OP.

[admiralfluff]

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Gramps, do you not understand game selection? You keep saying "not even once in x # of hands" etc ... if someone is disciplined and understands game selection, why would they even once sit with another shark?

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Arggghhhh. I wish people would stop citing this crap as evidence. There is no way FTP banned an account for not playing with other accounts. It is certainly grounds for suspicion, but it is not evidence.

I'll lay it out:
First of all, no real player is that disciplined, and you usually have to play with someone to know if they're a shark.

Why it's suspicious:
The bot accounts are NOT selecting games based on opponent skill, or results. They are selecting games based on an unknown criteria. They won't play each other, but they will play opponents who can, and do, beat them all, and who would show higher earn in a datamined sample. So the 'bot' accounts are specifically choosing not to play each other. A simple explanation would be that they are real people who all know each other, and agree not to play against each other. Evidence thwarted. Does that mean FTP made a mistake? NO. No one ever said they banned the accounts for never playing together. FTP is using some other form of evidence.

The only potentially compelling piece of evidence that has been publically discussed are the timing tells. For example, if any (or all) account exhibited the following behavior:

Hero raises preflop, villain 3bets, hero waits exactly 4.3 seconds and hero calls.

If this account is a real player, he must have a 4.3second timer that is automatically set in this situation, and he clicks call when it trips. This should be unlikely enough that this account is deemed a bot beyond reasonable doubt.

Now imagine how many possible detectable elements there are to a bot program. Right now the botter has no idea how FTP detected him. That is why beatme came to the forum to make a big stink. If FTP told the botter: 'we know you're a bot, and this is how', the botter could fix the problem, and sign right back up. Right now, there is too much risk of immediate detection for the botter to sign up again.

This should clearly illustrate why it is so important FTP not divulge their detection method.

I'm guessing that most of the people who demand FTP make the method public do not play MHHU on FTP, and thusly do not think it will effect them one way or the other. In the short term, they are probably correct. In the long-term, they are not.

[moving shapes]

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Right now the botter has no idea how FTP detected him. That is why beatme came to the forum to make a big stink. If FTP told the botter: 'we know you're a bot, and this is how', the botter could fix the problem, and sign right back up. Right now, there is too much risk of immediate detection for the botter to sign up again.

This should clearly illustrate why it is so important FTP not divulge their detection method.


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[Mitternacht]

admiralfluff,

I think that most of the people who are demanding FTP present some evidence of wrongdoing are doing so because they have lost confidence in FT with all their [censored] account closings in the past. I don't want to know their exact methods, but I also don't trust them enough to take what they say on blind faith.

I don't know if beatme1 was using a bot or not. I do know that Mr. Gatorade seems to be a real prick. I don't think I've seen enough information either way to really pick a side. I do know that I am going to be taking my money off of their site in the very near future. I have lost all confidence in their ability to handle investigations in a timely and even somewhat transparent manner.

[Jzo19]

would be nice if FTPdoug or FTPsean chimed in and gave us some info

[Vega33]

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FT was the next site I was going to play, but after reading this, there's no way I will ever deposit there.

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It shouldn't have taken this thread to make you reach that conclusion- there are 3 complaints on this board about getting paid on Full Tilt for every one regarding Stars. And Stars' problems seemed to arise from their check processer- the good faith and honesty of the site itself was not in question AFAIK.

[StellarWind]

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I guess you know all the facts and you know that I "repeatedly" told FTP to ban him.

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Beatme1 is a bot and I stand by my position

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I didn't say "ban". I said you told FTP that beatme1 was operating a bot and in fact you just did it again. Do you deny this? Posting it at 2+2 or on the web where FTP was bound to read it counts.

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I guess you side with Beatme1 without having all the facts as no one but FTP has all the facts.

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No place did I say that I side with Beatme1. I have no idea whether he was operating a bot. You have reading comprehension problems.

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Also about this libel thing, that’s simply funny. What "lies" have I said?

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I never said you lied. I said:

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But if beatme1 is serious about her innocence then I think she should consult a lawyer about suing McGatorade for libel.

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That's what she should do if she's innocent. If she's guilty then she got exactly what she deserved.

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Also, I would say most people that play 50/100+ after years of self-proclaimed poker play he/she would have some sort of reputable friend on here that will stand by him/her.

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That's funny because I was just thinking that after making so many public accusations you would have some sort of reputable expert examine your methods and data. Someone with standing in the community who understands poker, computers, and mathematics. There is no need to make your methods public. Just show them to someone whom we trust that will vouch for you.