Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Internet Gambling > Internet Gambling

View Poll Results: KQo
raise 38 71.70%
fold 11 20.75%
call 4 7.55%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1291  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:17 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: spite shoving minraises
Posts: 17,702
Default Re: NL Bots oSn Full Tilt

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nlnut, or even brandon,

Could you tell me what info you provided to FTP? Was it just them telling you they were investigating you and you sent in IDs and such, or did you actually explain to them your "sweatshop"?

Im just curious as to how they concluded you werent bots, if you guys never explained to them your setup. I know this sucks for you guys, but you have at least admit its understandable why everyone here assumed(es) it was botting. Earlier you said they never asked for details, so I find it alarming they just concluded on their own it wasnt bots without having any knowledge of your setup.

Have you been in contact with FTP since this all came out? I hope at the very least they allow you to change your screen names.

thanks

Alobar

[/ QUOTE ]We provided them scanned ID's and this........ I left this out earlier....sorry, but I did PM FTPSean...I told him about the group of us playing together.. He responded with this.....Charles,

I was in contact with the Security & Investigations Team who informed me that your access to your account has been temporarily suspended pending the conclusion of their investigation.

I don't have much more to add as I really don't provide support here, I more act as a representative and advocate should a member of the 2+2 community not receive a timely response from Support.

In instances like this, as I am not the individual performing the investigation and as such don't have direct access to all the information, it is best to correspond directly with the Security and Investigations Team. I was advised that you had received an initial email from the investigator informing you of the potential timeline and such. That same investigator will respond to you with updates and may have some questions for you as the investigation progresses, but as I said, I do not work directly with that group.

Hopefully the resolution to the investigation will not take too long. Good luck.

Sean


But, the Security and Investigations Team never asked us for any details or any expalanation.


I sent Security and Investigations Team an email yesterday, no reply yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

nut,

thanks for the info.

Personally I believe your guys story. With nation and fink backing you up and the info you've provided I can see it being the case. Honestly im a little jealous too, I wish I had some buddies I could grind away with and split profits, would alleviate a lot of the stress.

However I do find FTPs investigation absolutely laughable if they concluded the truth on their own (which it sounds like they did), and just supports the theory that they dont really care. Which is mostly what I think everyone here is all riled up about. We all know there are bots on poker sites and when confronted with what obviously looked like one, they went "meh". The lack of response in this thread, even the lack of an explanation on their investigation to you is just bad IMO, and even moreso the lack of a response to you again after this all went down yesterday. Thread after thread of this stuff just shows that FTP really couldnt care less about their customers. If they dont at least respond to you and let you change screen names I think thats completely unacceptable.
Reply With Quote
  #1292  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:20 PM
FTPDoug FTPDoug is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 164
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

First off, I want to apologize for the delay in responding. I probably should have popped in right away yesterday to mention that we were well aware of the issue. That's pretty much what I'm doing now. This kind of issue isn't anywhere near my area of expertise, and for that reason, Sean from Support should be giving some more detail from his point of view before the end of day today.

Obviously for security reasons, I can't say much about our bot policies and detection methods. I can, however, say that we treat these issues very seriously and review our policies often. In fact, we had a meeting today involving all of our top decision makers in response to this case to re-evaluate these procedures. I also want to thank Trebek for his vigilance, and to nation, Brandon, and nlnut for telling their stories as well. It's been a very interesting thread and debate.

Doug
Reply With Quote
  #1293  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:22 PM
KurtSF KurtSF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,983
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

Hi Doug. Thanks for dropping in. Looking forward to FTP's comments once you sort through it all.
Reply With Quote
  #1294  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:23 PM
ShaneP ShaneP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 80
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

How exactly are you guys taking into account the random actions of other players at the table? This will affect the VPIP and PFR of these 4 suspected bot accounts. I don't see how the random behaviour of the other players at a table can be incorporated into your standard deviation formulas.

For example, assume the bot or robotic human player has the following actions with KQ in middle position.

if (hand = KQ and posn = MP)
{
if ( opponents_action = raise )
fold;
else if ( opponents_action = reraise )
fold;
else if ( opponents_action = call )
call;
else if ( opponents_action = all_fold )
raise;
}

Now there would be a similar case for every hand and position. If one player followed these actions at a LAG table with average stats of 25% VPIP and 15% PFR for 100K hands then his personal VPIP and PFR stats would be drastically different than someone who played with these actions at a rocky table with average stats of 15% VPIP and 4% PFR.

I don't understand how your STD formulas could be incorporating the effect of other players' random actions on the VPIP and PFR stats of the suspected bots. Don't you think that these variations would affect these guys VPIP stats by at least fractions of a percent even if they were following a rigid system?

I agree that if the bots had programmed actions regardless of their opponents actions then you could expect the stats to be nearly identical after 100K hands though. But if this was the case then the bot would be a huge losing player, so this can't be the case. But isn't this the assumption that you're making with these STD calculations?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to be clear in what I've said...using the naive calculation of SD, the largest deviation from the mean that *I* calculated for VPiP was 2.6 or so. However, this estimation of SD is the smallest it could possibly be. I've given one reason (changing the underlying VPiP halfway through play, to generate the draws from two different distributions), and you have another very valid way to pick from two distributions which would also mean the naive calculations underestimate SD. Thus a SD of 2.6 doesn't show me anything.

Thus, the VPiP doesn't prove they're not bots (doesn't prove they are either). Someone could just be following some author's PF guidelines extremely rigidly or something. Now (not statistically talking yet) the postflop numbers...

I hope this wasn't cleared up in the next 100+ posts before I post this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
Reply With Quote
  #1295  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:25 PM
Adde Adde is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,453
Default Re: NL Bots oSn Full Tilt

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Adde,

You already know how much AHK scripting I've done. When nlnut said, "No automated scripting" and "All human decisions", I'd take that to mean that they aren't using AHK. No?

Also, AHK scripts won't help them when it comes to deciding on a fold. If these guys are routinely folding to tiny (in relation to the pot) bets or raises on the flop, turn and river, then the decisions are probably not human-controlled.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes House, I know, just that I'm on auto-pilot and didn't recognize who I reply to. I'm kind of automated for the moment. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'm just trying to put some light on the scripting part of this, not the routinely folding stuff/etc.

If it could be shown that nlnut always raised (say) 77% of the pot on the flop, this wouldn't be a strong evidence of botting, since AHK scripts for consistently betting the same fraction of the pot is so widely used, and those scripts are not automated.

Adde
Reply With Quote
  #1296  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:29 PM
Lunkan Lunkan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 99
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

[ QUOTE ]
Now there would be a similar case for every hand and position. If one player followed these actions at a LAG table with average stats of 25% VPIP and 15% PFR for 100K hands then his personal VPIP and PFR stats would be drastically different than someone who played with these actions at a rocky table with average stats of 15% VPIP and 4% PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]
But over large sample size they are going to play equally much on rocky and laggy tables.
Reply With Quote
  #1297  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Hopey Hopey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Approving of Iron\'s moderation
Posts: 7,171
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I want to apologize for the delay in responding. I probably should have popped in right away yesterday to mention that we were well aware of the issue. That's pretty much what I'm doing now. This kind of issue isn't anywhere near my area of expertise, and for that reason, Sean from Support should be giving some more detail from his point of view before the end of day today.

Obviously for security reasons, I can't say much about our bot policies and detection methods. I can, however, say that we treat these issues very seriously and review our policies often. In fact, we had a meeting today involving all of our top decision makers in response to this case to re-evaluate these procedures. I also want to thank Trebek for his vigilance, and to nation, Brandon, and nlnut for telling their stories as well. It's been a very interesting thread and debate.

Doug

[/ QUOTE ]

Good, FT is finally on the case. Now we just have to sit back and wait patiently for the next 3 months while they investigate...
Reply With Quote
  #1298  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:41 PM
MyTurn2Raise MyTurn2Raise is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Evolving Day-By-Day
Posts: 18,508
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

someone asked if shortstacking could poduce such similar stats...the answer is yes and no

I've shorstacked a few hundred thousand hands last summer when I still had access to OnGame's 10BB buyin tables and juicy bonuses (damn you UIGEA). My numbers differed by much more than the players here. HOwever, that is because I would learn and tweak as I went along. It was nice to win, but I liked trying to push the winrate higher. I am somewhat amazed that these guys have been so dedicated to their system. FFS, fold your small blind everytime guys. I'm serious....I saw your winrate in that position.

EDIT:
also, I played a very similar nitty style to that of the alleged botters last summer to make some dough with low variance. I did talk about it in Vegas with many other SSNLers. Actually, I mentioned it at a SSNL donkfest game at the Orleans. Nation and Pokerfink were sitting directly to my right. Georgia Avenue, Isura, Pokey, Dominic, and 4_2_it were also present. I believe that Isura, Pokey, Nation, and Pokerfink would all recall that the topic was discussed. I hope my talk of a simple system, which was originally derived from a post punter11235 made on set-mining, was not the basis of this scourge.
Reply With Quote
  #1299  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:42 PM
Our House Our House is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USGamers
Posts: 18,414
Default Re: NL Bots oSn Full Tilt

[ QUOTE ]
If it could be shown that nlnut always raised (say) 77% of the pot on the flop, this wouldn't be a strong evidence of botting, since AHK scripts for consistently betting the same fraction of the pot is so widely used, and those scripts are not automated.

Adde

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's correct. What I'm referring to is his wording. Either he's denying the use of AHK completely or he's really skirting the issue to avoid saying that he does use AHK (which is weird because AHK use is NOT against T&Cs and is fairly common around here).

If nlnut would confirm the use of AHK scripts for betsizing, that would clear up this particular aspect of my post.
Reply With Quote
  #1300  
Old 05-10-2007, 03:43 PM
nlnut nlnut is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 140
Default Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt

This is the Pix of our computer setup.




If someone knows how to resize the pix bigger please do so. I don't know how.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.