Torre is back... edit... NOT

[Triumph36]

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This is gonna sound so dumb, but it feels like such an honor to just sit here and listen to him answer questions for an hour.

I hate the Yanks, but Joe is so f'in dignified.

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I watched about 5 minutes of the press conference - Joe Torre is just an all around great guy.

[vhawk01]

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I don't dismiss advanced SABR analysis. I'm also no expert on it, obviously. I've read Moneyball, and pretty much buy into it. I do embrace it's ability to evaluate players.

But SABR analysis doesn't answer everything. It doesn't explain Bucky Dent, for instance. It certanly doesn't explain the D'backs winning 90 games. It's not the be all and end all of baseball, unless you limit your baseball playing to Strat-O-Matic geekery.

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It actually explains all of those things. Have you ever taken a look at a bell curve before? What do you see on the far right and left ends of it?

[Mondogarage]

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Exhbit A:

"If Kobe Bryant can be paid $25 million a year to whine about getting to play pro basketball, then Torre can easily be paid $7.5m a year to actually run a professional baseball team. "

You think one of the best players ever in the NBA is only about 3x as valuable as an MLB manager.

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Hmm, considering how many championships Kobe has led his team to since Shaq departed, you might want to choose a better example. That said, your statement is irrelevant, as the market economics between basketball and baseball are far different. Nevertheless, by your logic, Kobe and Torre should be worth about the same, since neither's won a championship anytime recently.

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Exhibit B:

" The Yankees' farm system is pretty much a bare cupboard now (thanks to Cashman, not Torre),"

The Yankees have one of the best farm systems in baseball.

Exhibit C:[/quote}

And I've already admitted my lack of in depth knowledge of the Yankees farm system. That said, you may with to check BA's ranking of the Rockies' overall organizational system, as well.

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"The Yankees would be dumb to pay $12m a year to a closer when they're not going to be close enough to a playoff spot to need Rivera. They'd probably be better off spending the money restocking their farm system.

It's no accident that the Indians, Rockies, Tigers, etc., are a lot closer to a World Series these days than the Yankees, and it's no secret why."

This probably isn't even worth replying to, as all of your ignorance is self evident.

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So, you're saying that the Yankees have been closer to being World Series champions than any of the teams I've cited, this year and in recent years? And that every team other than the Yankees who has won a world series this decade has been a worse team than the Yankees in each of those years? And that in every case, the Yankees reverse-luckboxed their way into losing a series against an inferior team?

Really...aside from my demonstrated and professed ignorance about the Yankees' farm system, nothing else I've said has really been off base. But that's okay, some of you guys like to insult for cheap thrills and sport, and that's fine. A bit sad, but fine, nonetheless.

[Dudd]

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Hmm, considering how many championships Kobe has led his team to since Shaq departed, you might want to choose a better example. That said, your statement is irrelevant, as the market economics between basketball and baseball are far different. Nevertheless, by your logic, Kobe and Torre should be worth about the same, since neither's won a championship anytime recently.

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ZOMG, IM WORTH AS MUCH AS KOBE!!11

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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Nevertheless, by your logic, Kobe and Torre should be worth about the same, since neither's won a championship anytime recently.

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but Torre probably only has like a 5% affect on his teams ultimate fate. maybe a better manager would guide them to 2 or 3 more wins, a worse manager the opposite.

I'm not sure what Kobe is worth to the Lakers but it's way way more than 5%. hoops sabr guys could probably quantify it, but I would guess without Kobe the Lakers win like 10 less games. meaning the best basketball player in the world is about 10x as valuable as a baseball manager.

edit.

Dudd said it better. ZOMG, IM WORTH AS MUCH AS KOBE!!11

[Thremp]

All,

I mean can we really even hope to take Mondo seriously?0

[AbreuTime]

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Mondo, just because you started following baseball like a month ago, does not mean that you have any clue about anything.

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His inferior knowledge of statistics do not make his assertions wrong. They may be right for the wrong reasons. Your arrogance and resort to personal attacks are very weak.

Edit: I am not defending Mondo by any means, since he has said a bunch of stupid stuff. But if you're going to respond to him, dont just say "your dumb lolz."

[Mondogarage]

Hey, if Kobe's paid to win championships, and fails to do so, it stands to reason he should be taking a 1/3 pay cut with performance incentives added, no?

[Thremp]

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Hey, if Kobe's paid to win championships, and fails to do so, it stands to reason he should be taking a 1/3 pay cut with performance incentives added, no?

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Can you do this analysis based on marginal utility over replacement level? Like say a Smush parker SG and then a random manager.

[vhawk01]

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Exhbit A:

"If Kobe Bryant can be paid $25 million a year to whine about getting to play pro basketball, then Torre can easily be paid $7.5m a year to actually run a professional baseball team. "

You think one of the best players ever in the NBA is only about 3x as valuable as an MLB manager.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, considering how many championships Kobe has led his team to since Shaq departed, you might want to choose a better example. That said, your statement is irrelevant, as the market economics between basketball and baseball are far different. Nevertheless, by your logic, Kobe and Torre should be worth about the same, since neither's won a championship anytime recently.

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Exhibit B:

" The Yankees' farm system is pretty much a bare cupboard now (thanks to Cashman, not Torre),"

The Yankees have one of the best farm systems in baseball.

Exhibit C:[/quote}

And I've already admitted my lack of in depth knowledge of the Yankees farm system. That said, you may with to check BA's ranking of the Rockies' overall organizational system, as well.

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"The Yankees would be dumb to pay $12m a year to a closer when they're not going to be close enough to a playoff spot to need Rivera. They'd probably be better off spending the money restocking their farm system.

It's no accident that the Indians, Rockies, Tigers, etc., are a lot closer to a World Series these days than the Yankees, and it's no secret why."

This probably isn't even worth replying to, as all of your ignorance is self evident.

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So, you're saying that the Yankees have been closer to being World Series champions than any of the teams I've cited, this year and in recent years? And that every team other than the Yankees who has won a world series this decade has been a worse team than the Yankees in each of those years? And that in every case, the Yankees reverse-luckboxed their way into losing a series against an inferior team?

Really...aside from my demonstrated and professed ignorance about the Yankees' farm system, nothing else I've said has really been off base. But that's okay, some of you guys like to insult for cheap thrills and sport, and that's fine. A bit sad, but fine, nonetheless.

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You made the comment earlier, something to the effect "sure these things might not be the greatest PREDICTIVE stats or arguments but you can't argue with the fact that, retrospectively, X was better than Y this year." Something like that, forgive me for fudging a little. And you are doing the same thing now.

Do you realize how tremendously boring RETROSPECTIVE sports discussions are? Do you really want to sit around and argue about who had the lowest ERA last year? What NFL team has the most Super Bowl rings? Who has the best October batting average? These are sooooooooooo boring. 99% (or 99.999%) of the discussions on this board are PREDICTIVE, projections, guesses, stuff about the future. You know why? Because its FUN. And the answer isn't found in the Baseball Almanac. So, yes, career wins is a great retrospective stat. But its a pretty useless PREDICTIVE stat. And since this entire thread is about PREDICTION (i.e. what the Yankees farm system looks like going foward, the chances of the Yankees winning the WS going forward, the opportunities for a new manager with the current team going forward) then you should probably stick to stats with good PREDICTIVE value. These descriptive, retroactive stats are always the last refuge of the guy who is in over his head. Whenever the argument turns sophisticated, the unsophisticated always says things like "Yeah well he has the rings to prove it" or "yeah well how did that work out for them?" or other trivialities. These are only valid points if anyone cares about describing the past. Its not ENTIRELY useless but its pretty damn dull.

Bear in mind that even arguments about who was the greatest of all time aren't really retroactive, descriptive arguments. Although they might not seem like it, they are really PREDICTIVE arguments about what that player would do in todays game or at a different position or on a better team or something like that. Comparisons between players are usually predictive. Thats why we have to use interesting stats for those discussions too. And thats why those discussions are fun also.