Insurance in tournaments

[Lohu79]

I´m sure everybody has seen (or at least heard about) phil ivey recently giving insurance to phil helmut at a wsop final table not once but several times.
I haven´t done the proper calculations yet (nor collected the data) but i´m certain that helmuth gave away thousands of dollars ev-wise. He (seemingly) didn´t know the proper odds for the all-in matchups, thereby giving ivey the opportunity to hustle a bit, and of course ivey collected a little fee for giving insurance. But what´s more important: Tournament chips aren´t really worth their nominal value.

My question is: Did anyone take insurance in a tournament himself, and for what reasons? How much did you pay for decreasing your variance?
Furthermore: What would be the proper way to calculate the real worth of a hand being all-in heads-up in a tournament situation?

[helter skelter]

You'd should probably ask this in the gossip forum.

I've never seen insurance in a tourney, only cash games where all the money goes in on the flop or turn and one has a made hand and the other has a draw. ( At least I think that is what you are talking about )

[MJBuddy]

This was fairly reported. After Phil's FT finish he was still in the hole for the tournament.


Answer to the question: Phil's result was probably why you shouldn't take insurance in a MTT...unless you were to do so in an extremely large pot AIPF on a final table with a significant prize where your ICM would relevent.

[Andrew1593]

I just watched this FT last night, and I don't have all of the exact numbers, but, yes, Hellmuth was basically giving his money away. It seemed like he was doing it as kind of a publicity stunt since he would negotiate with Ivey and then walk back to his wife saying "Great news, honey, Ivey's going to pay me 90,000 if my aces get cracked!" But, then, I suppose it's possible Hellmuth didn't know the correct odds.

Hellmuth got it all in with AA vs. 74o, so he was 85% to win PF. Ivey paid $90,000 against Hellmuth's $20,000, so he was offering 90-to-20, or 4.5-to-1, on a 5.67-to-1 shot.

The next one that was televised was Hellmuth all-in with A8 vs. J9 and the flop came AJx. I think Hellmuth was about 4-to-1 at that point, but Ivey convinced him he was more like 3-to-1, so he paid $90,000 against Hellmuth's $30,000, thus offering 3-to-1.

The EV calculations for these two:

AA vs. 74o: 0.15*90k-0.85*20k = -$3500
A8 vs. J9: 0.2*90k-0.8*30k = -$6000

All in all, Hellmuth ended up cashing $74,000 for 6th place in the event, but owing Ivey $109,000. Whatever Hellmuth's motives were, it was pretty funny to watch.

As for insurance in a tournament setting like this, I suppose you could include ICM in your calculations, though I'm not sure how exactly you would do that. In Hellmuth's case, I don't think it mattered too much since he was the shortstack when the FT started and he was lucky to make it to 6th place at all.

[helter skelter]

74o? Sounds like niether one of them cared about the money.

[Andrew1593]

Well, to be fair, the guy who called was in the BB and was getting good odds. One hand before, Hellmuth was UTG+1 and raised something like 40% of his stack with K6o only to fold to a reraise, despite getting 2-to-1. That left Hellmuth with about 70,000 in chips, which was something like 3-4 BBs. The very next hand when Hellmuth picked up AA, he made it 40,000 to go, everyone folded around to the BB. Assuming the blinds were 10,000/20,000, the BB was getting odds of (70+30)/50 or 2-to-1 to put Hellmuth all in. Hellmuth's raising range here is certainly not limited to big pairs, so I think the BB was getting the odds he needed.

[TwistedEcho]

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74o? Sounds like niether one of them cared about the money.

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go troll somewhere else

[donquay]

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Well, to be fair, the guy who called was in the BB and was getting good odds. One hand before, Hellmuth was UTG+1 and raised something like 40% of his stack with K6o only to fold to a reraise, despite getting 2-to-1. That left Hellmuth with about 70,000 in chips, which was something like 3-4 BBs. The very next hand when Hellmuth picked up AA, he made it 40,000 to go, everyone folded around to the BB. Assuming the blinds were 10,000/20,000, the BB was getting odds of (70+30)/50 or 2-to-1 to put Hellmuth all in. Hellmuth's raising range here is certainly not limited to big pairs, so I think the BB was getting the odds he needed.

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And that's why you lay down the K6 even though the math/internet kids say you have to call...so you can wait for the next hand to pick up AA...it's all about patience something you can't learn when playing by the math...just because you put in 40% of your stack doesn't mean you have to call an all in with king high

[jcg2005]

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Well, to be fair, the guy who called was in the BB and was getting good odds. One hand before, Hellmuth was UTG+1 and raised something like 40% of his stack with K6o only to fold to a reraise, despite getting 2-to-1. That left Hellmuth with about 70,000 in chips, which was something like 3-4 BBs. The very next hand when Hellmuth picked up AA, he made it 40,000 to go, everyone folded around to the BB. Assuming the blinds were 10,000/20,000, the BB was getting odds of (70+30)/50 or 2-to-1 to put Hellmuth all in. Hellmuth's raising range here is certainly not limited to big pairs, so I think the BB was getting the odds he needed.

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And that's why you lay down the K6 even though the math/internet kids say you have to call...so you can wait for the next hand to pick up AA...it's all about patience something you can't learn when playing by the math...just because you put in 40% of your stack doesn't mean you have to call an all in with king high

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LDO cuz we all know if u fold ur chances of getting AA double!!!zomg!!!11!shift

like they already asked, please troll elsewhere.....

[MJBuddy]

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Well, to be fair, the guy who called was in the BB and was getting good odds. One hand before, Hellmuth was UTG+1 and raised something like 40% of his stack with K6o only to fold to a reraise, despite getting 2-to-1. That left Hellmuth with about 70,000 in chips, which was something like 3-4 BBs. The very next hand when Hellmuth picked up AA, he made it 40,000 to go, everyone folded around to the BB. Assuming the blinds were 10,000/20,000, the BB was getting odds of (70+30)/50 or 2-to-1 to put Hellmuth all in. Hellmuth's raising range here is certainly not limited to big pairs, so I think the BB was getting the odds he needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why you lay down the K6 even though the math/internet kids say you have to call...so you can wait for the next hand to pick up AA...it's all about patience something you can't learn when playing by the math...just because you put in 40% of your stack doesn't mean you have to call an all in with king high

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Man let's go ask deeb how often he makes folds with atc in the BB vs SSs with huge ranges