6max starting hands (good discussion of PF and post flop play)

[corsakh]

What? PSR rules, PNL ftw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] All I want it this thread to be locked. I can't imagine someone with pooh bah can have a meaningful discussion about 6max preflop ranges in NL in vacuum.

[Gelford]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Yeah, where's Ama, when you need him

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
All I want it this thread to be locked. I can't imagine someone with pooh bah can have a meaningful discussion about 6max preflop ranges in NL in vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

look if you are starting poker cold how would you know whether or not to play 65s or A5s UTG. I mean it looks pretty right?

obviously I don't play according to some hand range chart but I am assuming OP is fairly new to the game and is trying to get some understanding of reasonable hands to play in different positions. That is a completely legit question and instead of giving some meaningless 'ugh don't use hand charts' i tried to give a helpful response.

This is a not a thread where giving some cocky levelling response is appropriate (especially a fairly subtle one).

Also note OP did not give a vacuum: he specified some basic reads. not the whole story, but it is ridiculous to suggest that you can't give a useful response to OP's question.

/rant

[corsakh]

He can get all the info he needs from supersystem , harrignton, forum stickies etc. But its not even the point boz.

Thing is you can't teach people what to do in poker. You can, but its beyond stupid.

To get results you should explain how to think. Thought process is paramount. Hand range is like the fundamental primitive in it. This is where the thinking starts.

Putting a set of prescribed graphs, charts and other rubbish is just setting someone on a wrong foot. Just like building your game around pt stats. Ever noticed that two most common "general area" question from <50 posts are "check my stats" and "what are you hand ranges?" (aside from "can I fold KK" and "how is my bluff?" of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Gelford]

Well then Corsakh ... explain, how do you go about constructing your pf ranges ?

[kroeliewoelie]

Come on Corsakh, it's complete [censored] that you don't use a set of prescribed rules. This chart may be a mental one and not a physical one, but you definitely have one. Even though your starting range of hands depends on a few factors, a lot of it is quite standard. Most people don't play 11/9 on one table and 25/23 on another. So definitely a huge part part of your preflop game is standardized. In time every good player will learn that this isn't optimal, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good starting point.

I know that at least half my opponents would be playing way better if they used such a chart.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Most people don't play 11/9 on one table and 25/23 on another.



[/ QUOTE ]

Some do ... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Trouble is that all can agree that poker depends, but few actually go into detail.

[Unknown Soldier]

there's a lot of detail to go into gelford! I'll give you a nice scenario though. let's say you have a table with 2 fishies on your right and 3 of the nitiest nits on your left. You have the btn every hand eccept when you're in the blinds, so start opening ridiculous amounts



corsakh, limping big pairs in EP? pleeeaase don't. i don't think min-raising is a particularly important tool although i'd like to hear an argument o/w. i sometimes mr otb if the blinds are really nitty and give up too much.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
there's a lot of detail to go into gelford!

[/ QUOTE ]


I know, there is a reason that I aint giving any specific advice myself either, would quickly turn into a pooh-bah style post without covering all anyway [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[matrix]

Preflop 6max hand charts are not worth the pixels they are written with for NL poker. Almost all preflop play can be justified given certain conditions - and even if your preflop game is horribly horribly -EV (say we open raise every other hand for example) you can STILL make a semi reasonable ptbb/100 by goot postflop play.

Yes thats stretching it a bit - BUT the key thing to note is that postflop play is >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>> than preflop play.

Corsakh is spot on in that new players need to learn WHY to think a certain way - it's the thinking that we are building on playing microlimits.

Hell at the same table vs the same villains on subsequent orbits I could be dealt AA in MP AK in CO KK OTB and raise all of them - the following orbit I get AJs in the CO and raise that and then OTB it's folded to me and I pickup A5o - under normal circumstances A5o is a raise here - BUT we have just hit a hot run of cards and even the donkiest of donks will notice that we are now "lagging it up" so I tend to fold and tighten up after a hot run (that doesn't get to SD) for a little while cos it stands to reason I will get called more often - if you are following a chart you raise blindly away... You can no doubt cite plenty of other examples where deviating from a chart is good.

I don't think this helps noob players - I think this will confuse them and get them thinking about things the wrong way - NL poker has a hell of a lot more to do imo with implied odds and position than preflop hand value rankings.

My lifetime button vpip is ~35% my lifetime UTG vpip is ~10% and the later my position the more hands I play.

A new player I think would benefit more from - "play only the very best hands from UTG (about the top 10%) and in the blinds and when you play the hand raise or fold. The only exception being pp's 22 - 99 and if the pot has been opened it's fine to call a preflop raise with your pp provided that the raiser and you both have 12-15x at least still remaining stacks after the call) - fold EVERYTHING ELSE.

From MP if your hand is good enough you think to make a raise with (either the pot is unopened so you can raise say the top 20ish% - or you have a really top hand and can reraise) else fold (still with that pp exception)

From CO add in all the sc's 54+ and Axs and on the button add in the offsuit connectors and suited 1gappers. 53+ and Kxs.

Understand that POSITION is waaaaaaaaaaaay more important than you think it is. That drawing hands are ONLY good to play from LP most of the time. That broadway cards like AT KJ KT QJ QT JT are pretty worthless vs reasonable players and are only good for making straights with most of the time.

When you open a pot make it 4BB+1BB per limper and fold all but your very best hands to a reraise preflop."

This is far from optimal and takes no account of the type of players you play against etc etc etc - but it's a better starting point I think that a hand chart that teaches you indirectly to think about the hand ranking values - when hand values preflop are one of the least important things to learn with NL poker.

Once you have a few hands under your belt and are no longer a total noob - the next thing to do I think is to learn WHY we raise these hands from x position - and then leave all the preflop stuff behind and start looking at postflop play.