Is "Overplaying Aces" A Myth

[1MoreFish4U]

One of the common themes in books & articles is that AA in & of itself is not a great hand & can get you into all kinds of trouble in LO8.

I wonder what the experience of the members has been.

In over 500k tracked hands of LO8, AA is far and away the biggest % winner I play.

When played aggressively they serve o limit the number of players often enough that they often win on without a showdown, on their own unimproved, or with as little as 2 pair. In addition, they can improve for low, flushes, str8s, sets & boats.

Often, the trouble with aces can be that players who have read that you can get in trouble with aces, slow down in the face of any aggression, or when they dont flop a great hand.

I am not saying that there arent times to let go, but a good player should get better at sensing those times based on the texture of the board and the habits of the opposition.

Thought - go ahead & flame away. For those with PT, if you go to your General Info tab, to Categories, and then add some categories like AA, A2 - less AA, A3 - less AA,A2 etc - you might find the results surprising.

[Murakawa]

Often aces makes top two or a set against someone with just the nut low draw, and when their low misses you rake it in. IMO playing aces properly depends on your read of your opponent. If they called a raise and the flop comes 379, you'll often find that they have A2 and no high, and often you'll have AA2 and quarter them or scoop. One of the best cards you can see on the turn is a 9, it is unlikely to give them trips, and they have missed their low. The nut two pair is usually only good if they are convinced that their two pair is good or if they only have a low draw. Sometimes if you bet they'll call down with a naked A2 and you scoop or quarter 'em. Top boat is always good. But if the flop comes 9TJs and there is action I'm out of there.

[Truthiness24]

Aces are (of course) going to show as your strongest winners by percentage on PT. They aren't chopped liver -- they are still the strongest pairing to have (with A2).

I think that the point of the folks who say that people "overplay aces" is that with optimal play of aces one can make even more money with them ... and that lots of us play aces suboptimally through overvaluing them and then acting on that overvaluation.

[Buzz]

1MoreFish4U - A pair of aces within a hand is one of the best two card combinations you can have in Omaha-8.

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, is recommending you discard a starting hand because it has a pair of aces. A pair of aces is an asset in a starting hand.

And about three times out of four, when you have a pair of aces, at least one of them will have one or two cards of the same suit, giving rise to another of the best two card combinations you can have within a starting hand in Omaha-8, a suited ace. (Or the hand with the pair of aces might even have two of these ace-suited combos).

And there are various wheel cards that go well with a pair of aces. You might have a deuce and/or trey, and or four, or a trey + four, or a trey + five, or a four + five. These are also all fine combos to have within a hand. And one of the aces can also fit well with an honor card to make a high straight.

So it gladdens one's heart to look down and see a pair of aces as the first two cards dealt.

But then when the flop is
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you have an A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] combo, (or maybe another X[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],Y[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] combo and know what you're doing) your pair of aces turns to dung.

Or when the flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you also have a king (or maybe a pair of deuces), your pair of aces turns to dung.

Or when the flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in a full game, unless you also have a five (or maybe a pair of fours, treys, or deuces), your pair of aces also turns to dung.

I could go on and on. There are a myriad of flops that will not fit your hand when it contains a pair of aces. (It's different when you're playing heads-up or short handed).

And then, at least in a full game where a number of your opponents have also seen the flop, when your aces or your other cards don't fit well with the flop, you must fold those lovely aces.

When you don't, you're "overplaying your aces."

It's a very common mistake, made especially by some players who play a lot of Texas hold 'em and don't switch their thinking to Omaha-8-mode fast enough.

As an aside, in a full game, AA is not the very best two card combo you can have within a hand in a full ring game of limit-Omaha-8.<ul type="square">A2 suited,
A2 off-suit,
A3 suited,
A3 off-suit, and
A4 suited[/list]are all better two-card combos to have within a hand in a full ring game than AA. And you can overplay those great two-card combos too. (AA is very close to, but slightly behind A4 suited in a full ring game of limit-Omaha-8).

Buzz

[fishyak]

In low limit live O/8, AA has proven thorny for this relative newcomer. Raising PF does not get many people out at Commerce even though I play comparatively tight. I am getting better at getting away from bad flops. And so much depends on the other two cards in my hand. If I don't have a Plan B and I've raised PF, now I have to throw away a hand that is twice as expensive to play as the normal starting hand. High risk for possibly high reward.

[2handed]

AA in a loose passive full ring game where an average of 4 or more players see the flop is a hand to be played carefully and should not be raised preflop simply because you have AA. Without at least one good low sidecard or two connected high cards it is usually a call or even sometimes in rarer occassions a muck depending on the preflop action. This changes of course in shorter more aggressive games like the ones found online where you raise and pretty much 3bet any AA hand because of how vital it is to get the pot heads up where your AA makes you a favorite vs. nearly any hand. AA is much easier to play on paired boards and unconnected high card boards in these games, and has been profitable for me since aggressive opponents tend to come after you on flops like K92r or QQ8, if they read you for a low card hand.

Heads up AA should often be used as bluffcatcher in these spots, but of course given a solid read it can be thrown away there as well. Out of Position against an aggro opponent it is often better to check the turn or the river and let him bluff on boards that are likely to have missed his hand, and that he knows missed alot of your preflop raising and 3betting hands if you are properly playing hands like A23J, 2345 suited, etc aggresively. Inducing bluffs is important here, since people love to peel the flop and even the turn with very little when you are betting and then when you slowdown try to take the pot away if all the draws blanked out.

Remember sometimes your opponents will not call you on the last two streets with a hand a worse hand than AA, but will bet the same inferior holding if given the opportunity to try and steal the pot. This play is of course very situational, and is meant to be used when your their is no low possible, or the low you made that accompanies your aces is pretty weak.

[SparkMan]

[ QUOTE ]
In low limit live O/8, AA has proven thorny for this relative newcomer. Raising PF does not get many people out at Commerce even though I play comparatively tight. I am getting better at getting away from bad flops. And so much depends on the other two cards in my hand. If I don't have a Plan B and I've raised PF, now I have to throw away a hand that is twice as expensive to play as the normal starting hand. High risk for possibly high reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rake in the $4/8 LO8 at the Commerce is a joke. No flop they take $1. Any pot where there is a flop is raked $3 min.
I won a pot that had $14 in it, minus $3 rake and $1 for the bogus jackpots they have. None of the jackpots get very big which is strange because I think you need quads beaten in the holdem games. I got up and cashed out of the $4/8 LO8 when the dealer took $5 rake and $1 for jackout from a $18 pot. It was probably an error but they don't care.

[fishyak]

I left my last O/8 game after two orbits stating that since the paint was now dry, I could get up and leave. However, the session before was like this:

AKK6 (K6s) UTG in a 6/12 full kill hand. I call, raised pot - 7 to the flop. AT5 with the A5 in my suit. 7 bets, no folds. Turn K. Now I have KKK and backup nut flush draw. I bet out. 7 calls. River T. I bet out, 2 calls and one of our resident nut balls (a mute guy) raises. Pocket aces? Another guy makes a move to call and pulls back - mute guy goes nuts and gets the floor. The way the mute guy is acting it is looking more and more like AA. Floor rules the other player had not bet. I call. Mute guy is 777TT. Ship the $200+ 3/6 pot killed and scooped to ME!!!

That's why you play O/8 with its rake at Commerce!

[1MoreFish4U]

All kinds of good comments made above, and I think the most important one to keep tucked away in most player's minds is that you can 'overplay' any hand. In other words, always be aware of where you are in the hand and willing to release likely losers -whether you wnat to take a stab with them or not.

A few comments - although I play a lot of h/l from heads up to full ring, I stand by my statement that I make more money per hand with AA than any other 2 card combo - by far.

That may be because I ahved gotten better at laying them down when I should, and continuing with them when others would give up.

I do mix up my play with them much more than I used to - and have broadened my open raising hands considerably, as well as 3 betting various combos much more often.

Two things that work well in online h/l are 1. aggression, and 2. varying your play/disguising your hand.

As Tex stated about his play, I too have learned to be able to lay down ugly AA hands OOP facing multiple bets, or even OOP knowing that I ahve aggressive players following me in the hand.

I also realize my original post may have made it seem as though I see AA as a hand on it's own - which I dont, and of course I'd rather have at least one A suited, and at least 1 wheel card when going to battle - I just mean that there are many ways that various AA hands can win some or all of a pot, and the pots can be substantial.

Buzz - you know the game, and you know the math, but I would sooner take my chances with AA65 with a suited A, than with A49Q with a suited A - in a full ring game.

Is any A4 suited combo much ahead of an AA5 suited A combo? - or just fractional?

Also, one point I intended to make was that by being able to play so many AA hands very aggressively you can take down pots without showing down, which also adds to the win total per hand average because of this scoop potential.

Aside to Fishyak - in the hand above, am I reading the cards wrong, or did you lose to quad tens?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I would sooner take my chances with AA65 with a suited A, than with A49Q with a suited A - in a full ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]1MoreFish4U - Me too.

[ QUOTE ]
Is any A4 suited combo much ahead of an AA5 suited A combo? - or just fractional?

[/ QUOTE ]No. Probably not at all.

But you're adding a suited ace to AA.

My comparison was between two aces and an ace-suited-to-a-four. And before any action in the hand. And before the flop.

Things change after action, and then certainly after the flop.

It's admittedly difficult (if not impossible) to separate two cards from the four cards within a hand. All the cards play together.

It's a moot point with me, because I'm going to want to see the flop with either of those holdings within a hand (AnAnXY or As4sXnYn). And I have them pretty close.

If the ace in the AAXY hand is suited, that adds another dimension to the hand and it becomes even better. Add a wheel card (like the five you added) and it's even better.

I fully realize you cannot separate two cards from the four within a starting hand. In truth, all four of the cards affect the probability of the outcome of a hand.

It's just that people talk about a pair of aces. (Indeed, this very thread is about a pair of aces). And if you're going to do that, comparing other two card holdings within a hand to the pair of aces suggests itself, at least to me.

And anyway, I do, rightly or wrongly, tend to think about the various two card combinations within a hand. And when I do that, before the flop I think of ace-four suited as being just a tiny bit better than ace-ace without the suits and without an extra wheel card. (And a lot depends on how particular individuals within the group and also on the group as a whole is playing and also on position. It's pretty hard to isolate two cards within a hand and compare them to two other cards within a hand without taking many various factors into consideration. I was innocently trying to simplify).

Would I prefer AA5-suited plus a random card to A4-suited plus two random cards? Of course I would! It's no contest.

Here's maybe a better comparison, from my data base for nine non-folding hands:
AA55s 561 567 812 1940
A455s 338 775 657 1770

AA5Ts 521 531 769 1821
A45Ts 336 775 629 1740

AA5Ks 532 534 744 1810
A45Ks 334 806 671 1811

Focus on the right hand column. As the fourth card in the hand becomes higher, comparing AA5Xs to A45Xs, the gap between AA4Xs and A45Xs narrows. (1810 and 1811 are virtually the same. If I re-ran the same simulations, AA5Ks and A45Ks might exchange places. Indeed, because of the higher scoop potential, I think AA5Ks is a slightly better starting hand than A45Ks. But it's a moot point. If I can't see the flop with both of those fine but non-premium hands, I need to find another table.)

Buzz