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  #121  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:53 PM
Python49 Python49 is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

I'm also surprised others liked the article alot as well.

I pretty much didn't like the article because I didn't agree with some of the main points. Can't compare chess to poker in terms of the difference in skill, I don't believe poker hinders one's ability to learn, and don't think live pros have an edge over online ones even in deep stacked games. Shouldn't Farha have been able to smoke Brian if he's the best PLO player in the world and they were playing half omaha, HU, LIVE, and deep stacked? I understand sample size is small and that's not definitive proof but if the best player in the world live can't win vs some online player without experience live at those high of stakes then theres not going to be some player that comes along standing head and shoulders above the rest. Theres this thing called variance that won't allow it.
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  #122  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:36 PM
Micturition Man Micturition Man is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The story of my poker life in 07 is that I was a big loser online, but I was the biggest or second biggest winner in live poker from May-August. On the whole, that has left me pretty flush.

My online play has suffered from some bad life management... I've been living a bit too fast, trying to do everything on a high level. It is ridiculous to play the biggest online games in hotel rooms while you are on respite from the biggest live games, and, yet, this is what I've been doing. Moreover, I basically didn't have a home from May-early November, and I was dealing with the stress of a broken engagement. I feel that my level of poker knowledge is at a world-class level, and in the past (especially 05) that led me to good success online, but this year my online endeavors have been a failure. I can't say how much of that is due to variance and how much is due to bad play.

Here's a good illustration of the difference b/w live and online....
David Peat (Viffer) is one of the best live NL regulars. Online play is all about optimizing one's bluffing/value-betting ratio based on the tendencies of your opponents. Well, for six months, Viffer had a policy of never bluffing Kenny. That is, if he bet big on the river against Kenny, he was never bluffing. For him, that was optimal... if Kenny knows when you're bluffing, your optimal bluffing percentage is 0. Something like that just makes no sense in the context of online poker.

Brandon

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i've played with viffer live and online and think he plays very mediocre poker in both contexts.
however, when i played with him live he was best friends with all of the fish and succeeded in getting himself invited onto antoine walker's private jet so they could continue the game when antoine had to leave. this didn't actually happen, but antoine and his friends were fairly serious about it.
i have no doubt viffer makes a lot of money playing live poker, but i really don't think its because he's one of the best no limit hold'em players around. i don't think he could beat a table of first rate online 5/10 players, even if they were playing live.

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I think this anecdote about Viffer kind of proves the point of how futile it is to seriously rank poker players.

If Viffer were able to talk his way into a HU game with that Mexican guy who is now the richest man in the world and win $200 M, would that make Viffer the greatest poker player of all time?

Poker is just not a game that lends itself to objective ranking... even cash game $ winnings is a very weak proxy for poker skill.

Another example - if one could imagine a duplicate David Benjamine who was 20% more game selective, that person would have far higher career winnings than DB. Would he be a far greater poker player just because he avoids HSNL hu matches with better players?
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  #123  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:47 PM
towery towery is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also surprised others liked the article alot as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brandon is a very articulate writer and for some reason people who can write well are instantly credible.
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  #124  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:56 PM
Sponger. Sponger. is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

[ QUOTE ]
Online play is all about optimizing one's bluffing/value-betting ratio based on the tendencies of your opponents. Well, for six months, Viffer had a policy of never bluffing Kenny. That is, if he bet big on the river against Kenny, he was never bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

6 months live never bluffing 1 guy in big situations? So this probably made a difference in about 3 hands.
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  #125  
Old 11-20-2007, 09:33 PM
DonButtons DonButtons is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs online)

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As long as we are exploring the antisocial: a possible sixth attribute of the perfect player is that he is unmarried.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying Patrick Antonius has a leak?
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  #126  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:12 PM
VitoT VitoT is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs online)

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying Patrick Antonius has a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he is perfect and you have a poster of him above your bed, which you are praying to, every single day.
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  #127  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:36 PM
rocketsfan4lyfe rocketsfan4lyfe is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs online)

thx for the post. in short, poker player = no life
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  #128  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:50 PM
innerpeace innerpeace is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

[ QUOTE ]

and its ridiculous to think that the only part great about aba is his analytical skills and that his "instincts" aren't on the level of kenny tran(lol)

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while both players might rely on their instincts, their instincts are honed in much different ways. aba seems to be much more analytic, and his instincts have been likely been honed by going over tons of hands, thinking about opponent betting patterns, and making many equity calculations. kenny makes excellent live reads based on many subtle cues - though honestly i haven't played very many live hours with kenny. i have played more with phil ivey and both almost seem like they are privy to more information than other people at the table. i can't think of a single online player that might be capable of making these types of reads.

online reads are mostly based on the history with the opponent, betting patterns and some timing tells. live reads are based on a whole lot more. that allows the best live players to narrow down their opponent's range giving them the opportunity to potentially make more profitable decisions. this skill is critical on the river when pots are the biggest and hands can be more defined. live games also play much more deep stacked and bigger, making decisions on later streets even more critical than you might see in online games.
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  #129  
Old 11-20-2007, 11:03 PM
VitoT VitoT is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

[ QUOTE ]
I think this anecdote about Viffer kind of proves the point of how futile it is to seriously rank poker players.

If Viffer were able to talk his way into a HU game with that Mexican guy who is now the richest man in the world and win $200 M, would that make Viffer the greatest poker player of all time?

Poker is just not a game that lends itself to objective ranking... even cash game $ winnings is a very weak proxy for poker skill.

Another example - if one could imagine a duplicate David Benjamine who was 20% more game selective, that person would have far higher career winnings than DB. Would he be a far greater poker player just because he avoids HSNL hu matches with better players?


[/ QUOTE ]

very good post, and true.
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  #130  
Old 11-20-2007, 11:38 PM
slik slik is offline
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Default Re: The Life Cycle of a Poker Player (and my thoughts on live vs onlin

I totally can relate to the stress that is associated with poker. However, I do not understand why online poker is so much more stressful to me than live. I swear, I am much more anxious, nervous etc in a $1 45 player online tournament than a $200 live tournament where I am at the final table. Same thing with playing cash games that are 10x the stake live. Is this a random idiosyncrasy that I have or is there some merit to online poker being more stressful than live. For what it's worth, I have been profitable at both online poker and live poker for all sorts of stakes. Anyone else have similar feelings?
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