SC numbers for suited connectors

Shandrax · #1 10-01-2006, 01:10 PM

NLHETP mentions that suited connectors generally have a (much?) lower SC rating than their actual move-in value. Does anyone have an approximation how much they are underrated? Can we add 10 to the number for example or 20% or anything like that?

alanbrown · #2 10-02-2006, 08:01 PM

SC numbers are the value in a HU situation. The gap between the number and the actual move-in value is based solely on the fact that in a real game your opponent can't see your cards.

How much that gap is, is based solely on what your opponent imagines your cards to be. But if they assume correctly then the SC number is completely valid.

I'm nay sure why suited connectors should be considered to be more under-rated than anything else. I read that whole chapter very thoroughly but can't recall much about that part of it.

Xhad · #3 10-03-2006, 01:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm nay sure why suited connectors should be considered to be more under-rated than anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly because they induce a lot of "incorrect" folds, and are usually drawing reasonably live even if called. Contrast with a hand like A2o where your opponent will play more correctly, or a hand like 92o that often has a snowball's chance if Villain actually picks up a hand.

Shandrax · #4 10-03-2006, 04:24 AM

Some of the more "systematic" players might have noticed that both, the Sklansky II System and the Kill Phil System recommend to make moves with suited connectors. The big question is why, especially if suited connectors don't have that much showdown value as SC numbers seem to indicate.

One could argue that making moves with these hands is some sort of semi-bluff. Another explanation could be the that suited connectors have the best chance to crack overpairs.

Usually I like to know what I am doing and why I am doing. Suited connectors still leave me wondering...

alanbrown · #5 10-03-2006, 05:50 PM

I'm not sure if that's relevant in a HU Move-In situation. I may not have understood your point, but SC Numbers under-rate the move-in value of a hand solely because the other player can't actually see your cards. And as we're talking about an All In and Call situation it doesn't matter about future betting.

The SC Numbers do not account for any incorrect play if the cards are visible so they shouldn't be any more under-rated than any other hand.

alanbrown · #6 10-03-2006, 06:07 PM

These moves aren't necessarily against a single player. In a multi-way pot suited connectors will go up in value because they have more ability to hit a hand that will beat many opponents. But in a HU situation, I don't see suited connectors such as 89s being a better hand to make a move with than K5o. Give me the king any day.

As for your point about being able to crack over pairs better, that's a pretty minor factor.

KK leaves 87s with 21% chance and 88 with 18.5% chance. However, if there are 5 people still to act then it's better to have 66 than 67s (66 has 20.2% equity, 67s has 17.4%). Against 1 player then 66 has 63% equity and 67s has 44% equity. Give me the 66 any time.

I stand with my original point. How underrated the SC number is, is determined solely by what range your opponent puts you on. The more accurate he is, the more accurate is the SC Number. But the more inaccurate his guess, the higher the actual move in value of your cards.

For instance. If you have Q8s but your opponent thinks you have AJo then your SC Number goes from 26.7 to 98.5.

Shandrax · #7 10-04-2006, 04:12 AM

It seems you slightly missed my point. Of course the opponent calling range matters. If he never calls, you can move in with 3-2o. What I wanted to know was how much better suited connectors do in comparison to their SC value. Actually if the SC numbers are correct, the difference should be zero, because the numbers should show the actual value. The question is, why did they claim something different in the book?

Xhad · #8 10-05-2006, 03:11 AM

Shandrax, if Villain almost always calls, the suited connectors are not "underestimated" by much if at all. They are underestimated because of things like, you go all-in with 78s, your opponent folds Q5o (in real life where he can't see your cards).

Shandrax · #9 10-05-2006, 04:50 AM

If that's true, then moving in with suited connectors is a semi-bluff. You hope the opponent folds and if not, you got a hand that win's more than the average underdog hand.

rakemeplz · #10 10-06-2006, 07:22 PM

The basic reason soooted connecters are better than their sklansky rating is obvious...sklansky assumes if you move in with 89 sooted you get called with hands that have you beat or even dominated which would never call you according to sound strategy or game theory like 109off suit or 10 6 of the same suit etc. etc. Sklanskys system assumes your opponent calls with those hands and a whole bunch of others that beat your 9 high where in reality those hands would fold and youd gain a [censored] of equity...so yeah its a semibluff move. The value increase would depend on stack sizes and fold equity...I have no idea how much the value of suited connecters would increase depending on strategy/fold equity [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].