$5/10 Razz--Three Pair

[Andy B]

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street - (3.10 SB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.55 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.55 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

River - (4.55 BB)

Hero: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (4.55 BB)

[*TT*]

3rd street - hero MUST raise.

4th street - hero should fold, pot is too small BECAUSE YOU DIDNT RAISE!

But ignoring pot size I think 5th street is a check, villain raised on third street into that field, you can bet as a heavy favorite that he has a 4 card hand made and didn't pair the 6 on 4th street. I have to admit its might close to a bet, but I think checking is slightly better.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[LandonM]

Beautifully executed Razz bluff, playing your boards rather than your hand (and assuming a decent knowledge of your opponent). Well bowled.

3rd Street- Call was fine. You were trying to keep in that extra customer when you were holding the very best possible starting hand. He wound up folding to the Raise, but he DEFINITELY would have wound up folding to the RR. With the nut starting hand, I want as many people in that pot as possible.

4th, call was fine. Fold would've been OK too if you weren't prepared to tell lies later on, but you were, and did so beautifully. You openly represented exactly what you had (2 lows in the pocket) when you bricked with a paired ace and set up subsequent streets for a bluff should your opponent brick.

5th- A perfect card for you and the plans you have with this hand. It doesn't matter that you bricked too- your opponent doesn't know that since your brick is buried and his second open deuce now leaves you both essentially even with open low pairs, but you with all the tempo and initiative, now to mention what looks like a substantial improvement on 5th with the 3.

6th- Again, played perfectly for your plans. You both caught precisely the same card, leaving you in the same strategic position as 5th. No sense putting in any extra money and trying to take it here down since your opponent will just call- that extra bet is better used on 7th as a bluff...

7th- That extra bet you saved on 6th now goes in on 7th as a perfectly executed bluff, forcing your opponent to fold if he catches any high card or any pair card (more likely than not).

Perfectly, perfectly executed Razz bluff.
A+ on this one.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd street - hero MUST raise.

4th street - hero should fold, pot is too small BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T RAISE!

But ignoring pot size I think 5th street is a check, villain raised on third street into that field, you can bet as a heavy favorite that he has a 4 card hand made and didn't pair the 6 on 4th street. I have to admit its might close to a bet, but I think checking is slightly better.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a positional error when reading the hand, I though villain was early to act not in a steal position. With that in mind I still raise 3rd street - we have no evidence the 9 will play on drawing poorly. As played 4th street is now super marginal, I fold if the villain is a bluff catching calling station or an excellent player, but against anyone with a brain I call. My correction now comes on 5th street, the action sways me closer to a bet now because its likely the villain is on a steal but I wont bet vs a bluff catcher.

PS: I forgot to mention I love the river bluff in the prior post

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[dsaxton]

It's been said in this thread that we should call in order to induce another player to come into this pot. But, speaking in general terms, even though we have the very best possible starting hand, doesn't it play much better heads-up? I'd rather put myself in a position to win the pot simply by catching better than one opponent rather than forcing myself to catch very good against several.

Anyways, that logic doesn't even apply to this situation since the bring-in will almost always fold anyways. I think Andy should just reraise for value.

I'd fold 4th like TT said.

5th street bet is probably good since the 6 may've paired villain and he may fold the "best" hand. He also may incorrectly fold a steal hand that is currently leading.

7th looks like a good bluff.

[LandonM]

[ QUOTE ]
It's been said in this thread that we should call in order to induce another player to come into this pot. But, speaking in general terms, even though we have the very best possible starting hand, doesn't it play much better heads-up? I'd rather put myself in a position to win the pot simply by catching better than one opponent rather than forcing myself to catch very good against several.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, the call possibly stood to keep one other fisherman in the pot, particularly if he was attached to his bring and had low cards. The potential downward value of keeping him in by just calling is greater than the expense of one extra bet that we missed by not RR'ing the better.

Any big starting hand plays better against one player than it does against a few opponents, however, the potential for very big pots and very big profits comes from keeping in customers when you are on a monster. A/2/3 in razz is the equivalent of 2/3/4 suited in Stud 8. With starting hands like that, I welcome all the action I can get on the early streets. If it doesn't improve, then I'm off it without having to abandon too much to the pot. If it does improve, then I'm in the drivers seat in later streets with multiple players who are priced in, right over the edge of a cliff.

A/2/3 is one of the few hands where you welcome action rather than trying to cull it.

[mscags]

I like it.

I can see reasons for both raising and smooth calling third

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been said in this thread that we should call in order to induce another player to come into this pot. But, speaking in general terms, even though we have the very best possible starting hand, doesn't it play much better heads-up? I'd rather put myself in a position to win the pot simply by catching better than one opponent rather than forcing myself to catch very good against several.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, the call possibly stood to keep one other fisherman in the pot, particularly if he was attached to his bring and had low cards. The potential downward value of keeping him in by just calling is greater than the expense of one extra bet that we missed by not RR'ing the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your advice shows a lesser expected value in the long run, and may also encourage a fold on 4th where as what we really want to create a situation where the hero can call 4th street regardless of the 4th street cards. Your showing weak tight thinking by not raising to get the hand heads up, it is not the long term winning play.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Johnny#5]

Unless villain had two pair himself, I don't see why he folded the river because you haven't credibly represented anything. Looks like you got pretty lucky here.

I raise 3rd, fold 4th and check 5th. And if I bet 5th, I bet 6th too.

[LandonM]

[ QUOTE ]


I think your advice shows a lesser expected value in the long run, and may also encourage a fold on 4th where as what we really want to create a situation where the hero can call 4th street regardless of the 4th street cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

With A/2/3, you can take 5th street regardless of the cards, and in the face of raises, seeing as a typically live draw gives you 16 (- upcards) to improve towards a 7 and 20 (- upcards) to improve towards an 8.

[ QUOTE ]
Your showing weak tight thinking by not raising to get the hand heads up, it is not the long term winning play.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it is precisely a "long term winning play" even though it may not work out in the short term in certain circumstances.
In that situation, with those cards, I'd invite action rather than cull it every time.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this question, as it tends to be stylistic, but when I'm that low on 3rd, ill gladly try to keep in an extra opponent when I know it won't be any more than 3 to 4th.