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Old 07-31-2005, 04:22 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

At least that’s my hope.

Hi folks,

In the hopes of eliminating future "what books should I be reading" posts, I would like to have a discussion of the various books that are out there so people can get the opinions of informed posters other than myself. I will be sending PMs and emails to a few valued contributors who don't necessarily post every day in the hopes that they will weigh in. In particular, there are some intelligent folks who know something about poker who advocate the books by West, Adams, and Othmer. While I’m not a fan of any of these books, I do want their advocates to talk about them a bit so that we can give a more balanced assessment of the various books. If successful, this thread will be immortalized in the FAQs.

No matter what form of poker you play, even if it's nine-card blind baseball, The Theory of Poker is must reading. Do not skip the draw and razz examples.

For high-only stud, the best book out there by a long shot is Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players by Sklansky, Malmuth, and Zee. Even if you are playing a small-stakes game with an ante structure that is very different from “real” stud, this is the best book for you to read, in my opinion.

For stud/8, the best book out there by a wide margin is High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players by Ray Zee. Unlike high-only stud, starting hand requirements and how you should play a given hand just don’t change much in stud/8 whether you’re playing $.50/1.00 or $30/60.

Chip Reese’s stud section in Super/System is excellent. Todd Brunson’s stud/8 section in Super System 2 is very good.

Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it. To use an example which I have beaten to death, there is a section where he discusses how to play a pair of Kings when someone with an Ace showing raises. If the Kings are split, he advocates folding (which is quite reasonable against many low-limit opponents), but he recommends calling if your Kings are hidden, because of the deceptive value. He goes on to recommend that you fold your Kings on fourth street if you don’t make trips, however. This is a terrible game plan. Assuming that you’re at a full table and your Kings are live, it is 20:1 against your catching trips on fourth street. You aren’t getting anything close to those odds, express, implied, or otherwise. If you are going to fold on fourth street when you don’t make trips, then you should fold on third street.

I bought Othmer’s book a few years ago and have tried to read it a few times. It is very dense with lots of charts and numbers and things. It may well contain some worthwhile advice, but I find it difficult to read, and I mostly play hold’em these days anyway.

I’ve read about half of Ashley Adams’ book. The approach of teaching things “wrong” at first and then correcting the bad assumptions later has its place. It’s how physics is taught, and I don’t think there is a better way. I don’t think that this kind of approach is really necessary in poker. I have a vague idea for a stud book which would be geared towards low-limit players, if perhaps not complete beginners. I can’t think of too many situations where I would really try to simplify any advice I give very much. Now I would probably recommend that a beginning player dump something like 765 on third street every time while he’s learning, because that’s the sort of hand that typical players get into a lot of trouble with, and it’s not very profitable even for very good players anyway. Admittedly, I haven’t gotten to the part where he “corrects” the first part of the book, but what I have read is weak enough advice that I doubt that the rest of it is brilliant.
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  #2  
Old 07-31-2005, 04:26 PM
beta1607 beta1607 is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Nice 4000th post Andy - maybe you should sticky this for easy future reference?
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  #3  
Old 07-31-2005, 04:27 PM
mscags mscags is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

I haven't read Hellmuth's book in a while, but I know there is a section on stud and stud 8/b along with a section on razz as well. Anyone remember if these sections are any good? I might have to reread them sometime soon and see what I can find.
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Old 07-31-2005, 04:28 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Since it apparently wasn't clear, once I get a few responses, this thread will be linked from the sticky.
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Old 07-31-2005, 04:32 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

The stud/8 section is actually OK. I haven't read the stud or razz sections, though. I did pull this book out and thought about mentioning it, but decided against it in the interest of getting this thing up. Since you mention it, maybe I'll read it this week and include some comments.
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Old 07-31-2005, 04:40 PM
greenage greenage is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Thanks for your 4,000th post.

Have you seen this thread? 2+2 LL stud book..
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Old 07-31-2005, 05:16 PM
mscags mscags is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Yeah I just got done rereading the 8/B section (real quick read) and it actually seemed decent. There was some advice that I thought was good but I think he also gave some advice about taking a card off when I would clearly fold. I'll have to look a little better and see if I can get some examples up here on something
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Old 08-02-2005, 05:03 PM
Michael Emery Michael Emery is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Hi all:

I thought I'd add in my few cents on the stud works floating around out there nowadays since Andy says "This is the book thread to end all book threads". If we really never see the question "what books should I be reading" again, then my time doing this was well spent.

For stud hi-low, there is really no reason to consider reading anything other than "Hi-Low-Split Poker" by Ray Zee. The first half of the book is geared towards stud/8 and is the best work ever done on it. If you can understand whats in the first 172 pages, and how to apply it to play, you're on your way to stud/8 success. Todd Brunsons section that was recently released in the new Super System II is also very good. Thats about all I will recommend for stud/8. The rest of the works I've read regarding it were flawed enough that you'd have to know what to dismiss while reading it, or it might do more harm than good. Unfortunately for everyone, the section in the original Super System by Sklansky is outdated, as stud-hi-low nowadays is played with an 8 qualifier.

Now on to stud hi. There are three main texts that are a must read if you desire to become proficient at stud hi. Seven card stud for advanced players, Chip Reeses section in the original Super System, and The Theory of Poker. While the latter dosent pertain specifically to stud, you must be deft in all the concepts the book contains to fully excel at stud. From front to back, no matter what form of poker you wish to take up, The Theory of Poker is critical.

Chip Reeses section in the original Super System is fabulous and was the first work I read on stud. It was imo what really redefined how the game was played. Some might says that 7csfap's did that, but that text came out many years later, and really just expands on what Reese said. The entire section is very concise and is only 41 pages in total. But as the author says "what you have here is the Filet Mignon and no fat".

Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players replaced Chip Reeses section on stud as the best work out there when it was released. While the book is specifically tailored to playing in a game with a reasonable ante and bring-in (generally 15-30 and above) it will simply take a small adjustment to apply the context to any game. The simulations in the back of the text are also very valuable. I could go on and on about the book, but suffice it to say its the best out there.

I also feel the need to throw in three books that are never mentioned when discussing works on stud. They are Poker Essays one, two, and three. They all pertain to hold'em and stud and even discuss the correlating concepts between them. In Poker Essays I you might find the chapters "Diffrences Between Stud and Hold'em", and "Common Seven-Card Stud Errors", valuable. In Poker Essays II "Is Stud Harder", "Which way is up", "Psychological Strength", are all great essays. In Poker Essays III "Which Game: Stud or Hold'em", "The Two Types of Stud", "Which is Better", are all great essays as well. In fact the entire text is, I just picked out some of the most useful essays for the stud player.

"Other Stud Works": I wont really recommend any other stud works, even though I have read the vast majority. I will say that 7 Stud 42 lessons by Roy West, Winning Seven Stud by Ashley Adams, and Ken Warrens Big book of Poker, which contains Stud, are all flawed in some sense. If you arent an expert in stud it will be hard to distinguish what parts are flawed, and it will leave a costly aftermath for you when you start to play. I simply picked out these three works as examples because I often hear many stud players on our forums discuss them. There are many more that are flawed that I have read. If anyone needs specific examples of the flawed material that they contain ( or that another specific work on stud contains) I would be happy to elaborate. Until another marvelous work on stud appears, I would simply advise sticking to the ones I recommended.

Mike Emery
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  #9  
Old 08-02-2005, 05:25 PM
greenage greenage is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

Nice post, thank you.
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  #10  
Old 08-02-2005, 05:59 PM
MRBAA MRBAA is offline
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Default Re: Andy B\'s 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

I like West's book more than others, although I must admit I've not gone back and looked at in a couple of years now. What I recall liking was that he introduces more sophisticated ideas about hand reading and situational play in a very simple way. I do agree that some of his actual advice on the play of hands is very weak tight and dated.

A good but little known book with general advice on improving your poker game, along with some stud examples, is Stepping Up by Randy Burgess. Disclaimer, he's a friend and my co-author on The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Texas Hold'em and an upcoming book on tells.
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