RAZZ - PStars weird 4th street call

[Praxising]

Nice to read all these incisive and thoughtful replies! So, let's see what happened:

On raising third:


[ QUOTE ]

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

[/ QUOTE ]
I usually raise on 3rd when I enter a hand, but in this case, I didn't want Seat 3 to think I was trying a steal. IOW, in this case just calling represents a stronger hand.

Folding 4th

[ QUOTE ]
4th Street - (1.60 SB)

Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

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I really expected Seat 3 to check here after I did, happy to have the chance to get even. When he bet, I was pretty sure he didn't have any kind of hand in the hole, and even if he did, by the river it is doubtful the K or Q will play. As the bring-in, he can have anything in the hole. I still very likely have either the best or an equal hand here.

Besides, I just didn't believe him. His bet to my check is just a standard response when one bricks and the other catches. IOW, he's trying to steal the hand.

[Johnny Drama]

[ QUOTE ]

I usually raise on 3rd when I enter a hand, but in this case, I didn't want Seat 3 to think I was trying a steal. IOW, in this case just calling represents a stronger hand.


[/ QUOTE ]
As Ks 2s 0.453
Jh 8h 5h 0.547

[jbrennen]

[ QUOTE ]

I usually raise on 3rd when I enter a hand, but in this case, I didn't want Seat 3 to think I was trying a steal. IOW, in this case just calling represents a stronger hand.


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No, this is just silly. There is no conceivable way that calling represents strength here. You raise, and if he thinks you're stealing, and maybe even re-raises, GREAT. If I'm Seat 3 here, when you call to close the action, it tells me that you are weak. Even J-2-A is not enough of a favorite over x-x-K that you can afford to give a free card.

IMO, your biggest mistake in this hand wasn't on 4th, 5th, or 6th street, but on 3rd by not raising...

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise on 3rd when I enter a hand, but in this case, I didn't want Seat 3 to think I was trying a steal. IOW, in this case just calling represents a stronger hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a much better better example of fancy play syndrome than anything that has appeared in this forum recently.

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When he bet, I was pretty sure he didn't have any kind of hand in the hole, and even if he did, by the river it is doubtful the K or Q will play. As the bring-in, he can have anything in the hole. I still very likely have either the best or an equal hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Prax, you're trying to put some kind of level 4 play on level 1 opponents. In their minds, if you complete you're probably FOS and weak in the hole, but if you limp you're definitely weak. If you limp 3rd and check 4th, you will certainly induce a bet when the bring-in catches decent, but you're in no position to take advantage of it since you have terrible RIO, a terrible board, and you did nothing to make him define his hand. You very likely are a big favorite, a big dog, or a coin flip.

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise on 3rd when I enter a hand, but in this case, I didn't want Seat 3 to think I was trying a steal. IOW, in this case just calling represents a stronger hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that you'd find much 3rd level thinking at .50-1. Just playing straightforwardly will do it in most cases.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]

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When he bet, I was pretty sure he didn't have any kind of hand in the hole, and even if he did, by the river it is doubtful the K or Q will play. As the bring-in, he can have anything in the hole. I still very likely have either the best or an equal hand here.

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Prax, you're trying to put some kind of level 4 play on level 1 opponents. In their minds, if you complete you're probably FOS and weak in the hole, but if you limp you're definitely weak. If you limp 3rd and check 4th, you will certainly induce a bet when the bring-in catches decent, but you're in no position to take advantage of it since you have terrible RIO, a terrible board, and you did nothing to make him define his hand. You very likely are a big favorite, a big dog, or a coin flip.

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I dunno, maybe so. As for FPS on third, I wanted him to think I wanted to play, I did, I didn't want him to fold. But - it was a J-8 hi, I also didn't want to get raised in case he had A2K. So, I limped.

You asked what I read in SoP. It was something Sklanky said about the obvious play not always being the right one. (pg 10) [ QUOTE ]
Just as an obvious bet might not be the right play, so too might an obvious raise, call, or fold be wrong.

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4th street looks really bad. I started to auto-fold. But the best hand he can possibly have is K82A, I have QJ85. And I just thought he didn't have A2. So, in fact, I have the best hand on 4th. He possibly has a better draw.

I don't know enough to know what "level 4" play is. Must be someplace in the book I didn't get to, yet. I just think if, instead of it being

Hero:85JQ
Seat3:XXK8

it was

Hero:5278
Seat3:xx95

and I folded, everyone would be saying I was an idiot to fold. But they are relatively the same hand. To me. I seriously don't understand why I would not check/call 4th with what is the best hand at that point in the hand. Especially in a game where there were no baby cards out at all. I was kind of expecting something good to happen on 5th.

Anyway, in the end I think we were both drawing to an 8, unless he just couldn't believe I called and stayed in hoping I'd brick again. I made my 8, he folded the river, and I never did get to see what he was playing.

[Praxising]

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No, this is just silly. There is no conceivable way that calling represents strength here. You raise, and if he thinks you're stealing, and maybe even re-raises, GREAT. If I'm Seat 3 here, when you call to close the action, it tells me that you are weak. Even J-2-A is not enough of a favorite over x-x-K that you can afford to give a free card.

IMO, your biggest mistake in this hand wasn't on 4th, 5th, or 6th street, but on 3rd by not raising...

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let me ask you, when it's folded around to the player on your right who has a card better than yours and they raise, don't you think it's about 90% steal? Do you think they always have two good cards underneath? Do you think a lot of the time they might have junk? If I just call, I say I want to play. If I want to play, I must have good cards underneath. If he believes that going into the hand, doesn't that mean he is likely to fold in a toss-up situation later?

[RustyBrooks]

In your imaginary hand, he has to catch a card better than an 8 (or whatever card you draw on 5th), and you have to catch worse than a 9, for him to swing ahead. In the actual hand, he just has to catch better than a Q or whatever card you draw on 5th. He will improve almost all of the time and so will you, but your best improvement on 5th is too a J. If these are the same to you, put them through a simulator and see.

In the actual hand you're a dog to almost any range:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=


In the imaginary hand you're pretty well ahead even if he has nice hole cards:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Being "ahead" on 4th doesn't mean much in this case.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]

As Ks 2s 0.453
Jh 8h 5h 0.547

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I don't know what this means.

(edited to add)
ok, too dumb to move the stupid decimal point. Thanks. And for the explanation, thanks, Rusty.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As Ks 2s 0.453
Jh 8h 5h 0.547

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I don't know what this means.

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He's comparing your equity against A2K (you're almost a 3:2 dog)