Rulling from MGM at about 3am

[grouchie]

There is a raise to $6, about 4 callers, then a guy in LP raises to $25.

it folds around to the person before the $25 raiser who is thinking about what to do.
$25 raiser thinks everyone folded and throws his hand into the middle (touched two other cards).

People were questioning what to do in this situation. Floor was called.

Dealer explained everything fine and the floor said he could take his $25 bet back and the other player gets the rest of the pot.

[[Phill]]

Im not 100% on the rules - but this is a perfect example of why i never push my cards to the dealer until he pushes the pot to me.

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a raise to $6, about 4 callers, then a guy in LP raises to $25.

it folds around to the person before the $25 raiser who is thinking about what to do.
$25 raiser thinks everyone folded and throws his hand into the middle (touched two other cards).

People were questioning what to do in this situation. Floor was called.

Dealer explained everything fine and the floor said he could take his $25 bet back and the other player gets the rest of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

His hand touching two other cards does not automatically kill it. If his hand is identifiable, give it back to him and play on. If its not...well, I don't know if this makes sense, but give him $19 back. The amount he called before he raised it up to 25. At 1/2 NL I can see giving him the whole $25 back, but I really don't think that's fair. His raise got all those other players out and to act as though his raise never happened just because he screwed up doesn't seem right.

[[Phill]]

From Roberts Rules, quoted in another thread here i just read:

"2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
From Roberts Rules, quoted in another thread here i just read:

"2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely. If the other player wasn't hiding his cards then we're not going to try extra hard to find his hand. But if it is identifiable (probably involving player or dealer identifying cards and player telling the floor what they are for verification) he should get them back.

I don't like killing his hand and giving him his whole raise back since that induced heavy action. At the VERY least I'd leave his $6 in there for the call (to the player with the live hand) and move on with life.

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a raise to $6, about 4 callers, then a guy in LP raises to $25.

it folds around to the person before the $25 raiser who is thinking about what to do.
$25 raiser thinks everyone folded and throws his hand into the middle (touched two other cards).

People were questioning what to do in this situation. Floor was called.

Dealer explained everything fine and the floor said he could take his $25 bet back and the other player gets the rest of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Bad floor call IMHO. And the fact that the guys cards "touched" two other cards is irrelevant as long as they are retrievable.

The guy who threw his cards thinking he was the only player left still has a live hand. The other player simply knows what he has. Giving money back to a player who acted fooishly is just a bad policy...again IMHO. The guy who was [perhaps] hiding his cards could get a KITN I suppose, that depends on the sitch, and that was not described in the OP.

[*TT*]

If the OP's story is accurate, the floorman at MGM needs to re-read the rule book. Unless of course the MGM rule book has non-standard rules, then we are all wrong.

[Peter]

Over here in the Netherlands they have betting lines and the rooms are supernitty about that. Everything over the line is not yours anymore. If you call but there had been a raise in front of you which you had missed, then your initial call has to stay in the pot. I even saw the same situation happen as OP described, the raisers cards didn't even touch any other cards (which as others have pointed out doesn't matter as long as they are clearly identifiable), but the raiser was forced to give up his hand AND his raise.

[pokerswami]

[ QUOTE ]
Over here in the Netherlands they have betting lines and the rooms are supernitty about that. Everything over the line is not yours anymore. If you call but there had been a raise in front of you which you had missed, then your initial call has to stay in the pot. I even saw the same situation happen as OP described, the raisers cards didn't even touch any other cards (which as others have pointed out doesn't matter as long as they are clearly identifiable), but the raiser was forced to give up his hand AND his raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
To whom would he give up his raise?

The house certainly doesn't deserve it.

The sole remaining player, who never called his raise, wouldn't seem to deserve it. In fact, the sole remaining player may have only x chips remaining and the raise could have been for 10x the amount of chips he had.

So does the house just confiscate the money?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

People seem to think that a hand that has touched the muck is irrevokably and forever dead, as if the muck has some magical properties. Not true. The hand is FOULED and MAY be declared dead by the floor. It's not the dealer's call so they did good there.

Although this hand did touch the muck, it sounds like it was clearly identifiable. Since I'm usually dealing with tourists, I tend to be lenient in the case of an honest mistake, as this clearly was. I'd probably give them back and let the hand play.

Despite the fact it might cause controversy, I think you should let inexperienced tourists slide on some things. Poker has complicated rules. It doesn't pay to break the tourist's balls on every little technicality. This might drive them from the game, from your room or from poker completely. If you're dealing, expect small tips. Any regular who protests this notion of chilling out instead of being a nit-picking, idiot table captain A-hole 1) can kiss my ***, and 2) has not the foggiest clue, and Regis won't even be able to sell him one either.

This floor's ruling is mediocre. Nothing wrong with it, but the floor can make any ruling he deems in the best interest of maintaining the fairness and integrity of the game, regardless of the strict interpretation of the rule(5) in question. You have to go out on a limb sometimes, but letting the hand play out would have been a gutsier, and better call.