Flat calling 3-bet with KK, right play? Stars 4/180

[Wish]

I'd usually try to isolate here, but I thought that flat calling would invite UTG+1 to try to iso instead, which I would happily call with a huge hand. Obviously, that much of the plan worked (I won't post the results), but was it the right play? Could some of you with some experience with PokerStove or similar programs figure out how much my equity is hurt by allowing UTG+1 to come along? I'm thinking it's got to be significantly +EV to get as much money in the pot as possible here, even though it increases my risk of being drawn out on. Also, in your experience, is this play too transparent against better fields than I might expect to find in a 4/180?

POKERSTARS TOURNAMENT #64306895, $4.00+$0.40/180 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL III (25/50) (manually converted)

MP1 (3455 in chips)
MP2 (757 in chips)
Hero (4195 in chips)
Button (1445 in chips)
SB (2930 in chips)
BB (1645 in chips)
UTG (1805 in chips)
UTG+1 (2665 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to Wish2007 K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

1 fold , UTG+1 raises to 250, 1 fold, MP2 raises 757 (all-in), Hero calls 757, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises 2665 (all-in), Hero calls 1908

[jchauvin]

i would 4 bet bc i think utg is going to come along usually anyway and is more likely to call the 3 bet than push himself. that said i dont think flatting is that bad, just raising is better.

[Dunkman]

My experience is that any hand he's iso shoving he'll also call a shove with, so there's no real reason to entice him. I mean, it's not possible for you to look weak here. No one who has a clue flat calls 3bet shoves without a monster, so there's really nothing you can do to hide the strength of your hand. Honestly, I think shoving probably looks a little weaker than just flat calling...only an idiot would misinterpret a flat call from you as being weak.

And yeah I agree with jc in the sense that the only way you could really screw this up would be to fold, but I do think shoving is preferable.

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
how much my equity is hurt by allowing UTG+1 to come along? I'm thinking it's got to be significantly +EV to get as much money in the pot as possible here, even though it increases my risk of being drawn out on.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a hand this strong u don't need to worry about the decrease in your equity from HU to 3-handed. As long as your equity is ahead of pot odds, the EV+ play is to get UTG+1 into the pot. How u go about doing that depends on reads, table dynamics, etc.

[Sherman]

This is so unbelievably standard.

It is absolutely 100% NOT TRUE that any hand he is shoving will call a shove.

He might (very often) see your call as weakness (like AQ or a small-medium pair) and figure that he can get you to fold facing two-allins (which you would if you held those hands). So he is going to shove very widely figuring he has some FE against you and overlay in the pot. Little does he know that he has zero FE.

Beyond this, if you shove, you let him fold a hand that he would otherwise shove to isolate (e.g. 99). If you were in his shoes and raised a medium pair, and saw two shoves behind you, would you call? Hell no you wouldn't. And neither will he (unless he is an idiot).

So give him a chance to hang himself. Call PF and try to induce him to come along. Perfectly standard.

Sherman

PS - Now please tell us he had AA or had AK and hit an A.

[homanga]

Along with what Sherman said, I think if you do cold call and he just calls then pretty much any flop is a shove.

[Wish]

[ QUOTE ]
PS - Now please tell us he had AA or had AK and hit an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, he had AKs, shorty had an ace, AJ I think. They were holding each other's outs and I won a big pot. I haven't learned much yet, but I've learned that the result has no bearing on the way the hand should have been played.

Thanks, Sherman, for that analysis. Your example with 99 (and hands of similar strength) makes a lot of sense to me.

[Pokerfarian]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, it's not possible for you to look weak here. No one who has a clue flat calls 3bet shoves without a monster, so there's really nothing you can do to hide the strength of your hand. Honestly, I think shoving probably looks a little weaker than just flat calling...only an idiot would misinterpret a flat call from you as being weak.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a 4/180...even a good thinking villian could see hero as weaker if he calls here, because many $4 players will just call with a hand that's marginal as to whether it should be played or folded. Villian's only put in 250 so he is definitely folding a decent amount to an isoshove but he isn't folding much if you call & as such he's shoving more

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is so unbelievably standard.

It is absolutely 100% NOT TRUE that any hand he is shoving will call a shove.

He might (very often) see your call as weakness (like AQ or a small-medium pair) and figure that he can get you to fold facing two-allins (which you would if you held those hands). So he is going to shove very widely figuring he has some FE against you and overlay in the pot. Little does he know that he has zero FE.

Beyond this, if you shove, you let him fold a hand that he would otherwise shove to isolate (e.g. 99). If you were in his shoes and raised a medium pair, and saw two shoves behind you, would you call? Hell no you wouldn't. And neither will he (unless he is an idiot).

So give him a chance to hang himself. Call PF and try to induce him to come along. Perfectly standard.

Sherman

PS - Now please tell us he had AA or had AK and hit an A.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to defer to you in this spot. However, am I crazy, or against a good thinking player doesn't a shove really look weaker? I know that if I saw one of you guys flat call here I'd be spooked way more than if I saw you shove, but maybe I'm wrong.

[rjsob]

Does anyone think the timing of the call has an impact?

I would wait for the 15 second buzzer to hit, then flat call. The hope is it indicates you are uncertain whether to call or isolate.