maybe I talk too much

[jba]

good live 20/40 game.

I limp ep with black fours, another limper, button raises, sb calls, the limper and I call.

the button is weak tight. I think he's actually pretty bad. SB is very loose and the softest spot at the table - just generally bad. his preflop range is wide open.

flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checks to PFR, he bets, sb calls, I call.

turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB quickly bets, I call, PFR folds

I tell the dealer/table I'm thinking of a card. SB hears it.

river: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB says "well there's one card that can beat me, let's see if you have it" and bets.

[AragornX151]

He's probably telling the truth, in my experience, given your description (loose, generally bad). I'd probably pay off anyway, given the pot size, but a fold is likely the right move. Not crazy about the flop call, though it's not terrible. You're getting 10/1, but so few outs are clean and there are two active players. As played, I'd rather raise turn than just call to avoid giving a lone spade great odds to play. If you're reraised, you can probably give it up against a weak player.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
good live 20/40 game.

I limp ep with black fours, another limper, button raises, sb calls, the limper and I call.

the button is weak tight. I think he's actually pretty bad. SB is very loose and the softest spot at the table - just generally bad. his preflop range is wide open.

flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checks to PFR, he bets, sb calls, I call.

turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB quickly bets, I call, PFR folds

I tell the dealer/table I'm thinking of a card. SB hears it.

river: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB says "well there's one card that can beat me, let's see if you have it" and bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to raise that turn. The donk by the sb is going to scare off your weak tight PFR. You can't keep him in by calling. Raise now for two reasons: if your opponent has just one big spade and is semi-bluffing you want to charge him. Second, if he is betting with a pair to keep you from getting a free card when you possibly have the spade draw, then get money from him now while he may still like his hand.

I think you are now beat. Pay him off.

[bdaddy]

You need to raise the turn to get QsX,JsX,10sX hands to fold.

As for the river, dunno. Really depends on my read of the SB and his willingness to bluff here.

[jba]

surprised by all the love for raising the turn. I dont think the weak tight guy is going to fold a spade here -- any spades that he does have are weighted towards the bigger ones. I don't think he'll fold Qx, probably not Jx, maybe Tx. but if he has a big spade it's by far more likely to be the king or queen. and I dont think he can fold a good non-spade Ax hand if I just call. raising seems bad to me.

and I think I'm an underdog to SB. I think his bet is almost always 4x or a flush.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
surprised by all the love for raising the turn. I dont think the weak tight guy is going to fold a spade here -- any spades that he does have are weighted towards the bigger ones. I don't think he'll fold Qx, probably not Jx, maybe Tx. but if he has a big spade it's by far more likely to be the king or queen. and I dont think he can fold a good non-spade Ax hand if I just call. raising seems bad to me.

and I think I'm an underdog to SB. I think his bet is almost always 4x or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point about the weak tight not folding to the turn raise. We just made a straight. Do we want to give a flush draw a free card? He makes the straight one time in 5 and beats us. Don't we want to collect a bet the other four times?

The sb is a poor player, could have anything, even aces up. A raise on the turn could get a free showdown if he has a small flush.

[AragornX151]

Yeah, it's not like we're just drawing to a 4-high flush. We have a made hand. If the sb has any hand BUT a made flush, not raising is a mistake.

Any overall comments on the flop play?

[AragornX151]

Also, if you're not raising that turn, you DEFINITELY should be folding on the flop.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're not raising that turn, you DEFINITELY should be folding on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that sb will be betting a flushed turn. his flop calling range is large -- much larger than just flush draws.

[bdaddy]

Even more of an argument for raising the turn.