Taking a stand with ATs in live 40/80...

[bdaddy]

disregard my post cuz I suck at reading comprehension [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Garland]

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Quote:
I’m highly against capping as the BB range is virtually always ahead of AT vs this opponent. Even with AJ he’ll will throw in 4 chips to see a flop rather than 3-bet. I only expect to see a better hand when he 3-bets OOP.



Quote:
BB – Loose aggressive young Korean gambler.



people are responding to this hand based on your initial read which is completely different from the revised read you just posted in the results

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No, that's not my intent. My thought on "loose" is calling with hands don't measure to a certain standard especially pre-flop. "Aggressive" means he'll raise rather than call, such as check-raising the flop with any pair rather than check-call.

The potential to 3-betting OOP with a worse hand than AT is certainly there. I would reserve this designation for one of two types of opponents ironically totally opposite from one another: (a) maniac or (b) solid/crafty player.

I guess I could be much more detailed in the original post, but it wasn't played by me and I didn't want to get too much into the head of the actual hero of this hand. I just wanted some thoughts on how the action went down.

Garland

[bakku]

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this raises another question...the villain called with 9 high? standard? shouldnt he be 3 betting/fold to 4 or mucking

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turn was not a ten. it was a blank card under ten

[andyfox]

"My standard line with AT in this situation is to call the flop and fold the turn."

Irrespective of the circumstances, this is a problemmatical tactic in mid-limit hold'em. Many, many players will continue to take a shot at the pot on the turn. Many, many players will then give up on the river when they have, for example, unimproved high cards. And they do this precisely because their opponents take the tact you talk about: call on the flop, then fold in the face of action on the turn.

Other day, I raised with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and just the big blind, a tough, relatively tight player, called. Flop was 9-7-5 rainbow. He checked, I bet, he called. Turn was another 7. He bet. I paused, looked him over, and folded. He flashed me A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Likely, it would have been very different had I raised the flop; definitely would have been very different had I called or raised the turn.

[ackid]

I like your raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. But do you really want to make this play vs. a Lag. Is he capable of 3-betting this river w/ air or lower pp?

I guess my question is do you fold to a 3-bet on river?

I think I would fold this turn.

[*TT*]

The minimum range for most live players (even semi-spazzy ones)to 3-bet in the BB includes ATs+, pairs, and KQs, hands that generally have the hero dominated vs A high. Without further information on the villain I find a fold on the turn.

As played I have no problems with 3-bet/fold on the river, villain is calling with a wide range of pairs because he will be blinded by the pair of Q's on the flop, hoping to pick off a bluff. The long lasting meta value alone is worth the investment.

[prophet73]

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The minimum range for most live players (even semi-spazzy ones)to 3-bet in the BB includes ATs+, pairs, and KQs, hands that generally have the hero dominated vs A high.

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I agree. Even most LAG live players at this level aren't 3-betting out of the BB with anything that doesn't usually crush ATs. Basically if you're talking about hand ranges given the situation, then this line is -EV, IMHO. Also capping preflop would be -EV.

Typical live player ranges for 3-betting OOP in the BB is frequently 99+ and ATs+ (maybe 77-88, but not as often), even for very laggy players. In my experience, for loose players, their mentality for blind situations with weaker hands like suited connectors or small pocket pairs is to smooth call ("Half Price!") and take a flop.

Considering this, I think the Hero simply got stubborn with his hand. 5.25 to 1 on the turn isn't enough (even adding in 2-3 more implied bets) considering he's at best a chop with another overplayed AT (unlikely), 6 overcard pair outs (only slightly more likely), 3 outs (one overcard pair out, more likely), or drawing dead (just as likely as the prior one).

The only other possibility was that the Hero has the best hand, but I would say there is a <1% chance the Hero had the best hand on the turn--again only IMHO.

So using my own guesstimations, I would say the Hero needs to get at least about 10:1 based on this line to get stubborn with this hand (which he will almost never get heads up).

Finally, the #1 problem that I see is that even when you get there, you can't possibly feel comfortable with your hand.

[nineinchal]

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The minimum range for most live players (even semi-spazzy ones)to 3-bet in the BB includes ATs+, pairs, and KQs, hands that generally have the hero dominated vs A high.

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I agree. Even most LAG live players at this level aren't 3-betting out of the BB with anything that doesn't usually crush ATs. Basically if you're talking about hand ranges given the situation, then this line is -EV, IMHO. Also capping preflop would be -EV.

Typical live player ranges for 3-betting OOP in the BB is frequently 99+ and ATs+ (maybe 77-88, but not as often), even for very laggy players. In my experience, for loose players, their mentality for blind situations with weaker hands like suited connectors or small pocket pairs is to smooth call ("Half Price!") and take a flop.

Considering this, I think the Hero simply got stubborn with his hand. 5.25 to 1 on the turn isn't enough (even adding in 2-3 more implied bets) considering he's at best a chop with another overplayed AT (unlikely), 6 overcard pair outs (only slightly more likely), 3 outs (one overcard pair out, more likely), or drawing dead (just as likely as the prior one).

The only other possibility was that the Hero has the best hand, but I would say there is a <1% chance the Hero had the best hand on the turn--again only IMHO.

So using my own guesstimations, I would say the Hero needs to get at least about 10:1 based on this line to get stubborn with this hand (which he will almost never get heads up).

Finally, the #1 problem that I see is that even when you get there, you can't possibly feel comfortable with your hand.

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To simplify: Who sucked out who in this hand?