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View Poll Results: 1-10
1 4 0.65%
2 3 0.49%
3 4 0.65%
4 15 2.44%
5 41 6.67%
6 110 17.89%
7 245 39.84%
8 155 25.20%
9 36 5.85%
10 2 0.33%
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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:45 PM
0524432 0524432 is offline
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Posts: 461
Default Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

I was discussing this scenario with a fellow FTP 50nl multi tbler. IMO, this is one of the toughest spots in NLHE. Hopefully we can get a decent sample size of responses to help clarify this situation we have ALL been in before.

NOTE: *NO READS* Consider both villains to be straight forward. All players have 100bb stacks.

$50nl FR on FTP

Hero dealt QQ in CO. UTG opens to $1.75. UTG+1 raises to $6.75. HERO ???
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 12:48 PM
PLAYOFFS PLAYOFFS is offline
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Posts: 174
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

At this point I am almost always playing for set value. With that in mind, I will call and hope to flop it and go to stack city. Given the reraise range of a normal villain. UTG+1 is given respect for JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK.

I am sure that I am folding the winner on the flop sometiems, but I think this play for me is +EV in the long run.

This is all assuming that UTG doesn't reraise, if he does then I'll evaluate pot odds with respect of flopping a set.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:06 PM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

Funny you should mention this...a hand from yesterday...

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (10 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($20.44)
UTG+1 ($17.37)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 ($25.68)</font>
MP1 ($17.10)
MP2 ($26.50)
MP3 ($5.90)
CO ($24.93)
Button ($21.64)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($41.30)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($26.84)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6.875</font>, UTG+2 calls $6.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls $41.20 (All-In), Hero ???
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:08 PM
AllTheCheese AllTheCheese is offline
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Posts: 508
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

[ QUOTE ]
At this point I am almost always playing for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing for set value here is incredibly -EV. Cold-calling $7 to flop a set with only $43 behind? Not only are your odds terrible, but the action is still open. That $7 could easily become a donation if UTG shoves. Just fold preflop.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:12 PM
AllTheCheese AllTheCheese is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 508
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

[ QUOTE ]

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (10 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($20.44)
UTG+1 ($17.37)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 ($25.68)</font>
MP1 ($17.10)
MP2 ($26.50)
MP3 ($5.90)
CO ($24.93)
Button ($21.64)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($41.30)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($26.84)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6.875</font>, UTG+2 calls $6.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls $41.20 (All-In), Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. Shove preflop next time, IMO, or at least make it $10.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:22 PM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

[ QUOTE ]


Call. Shove preflop next time, IMO, or at least make it $10.

[/ QUOTE ]


My thoughts exactly. When I looked at the HH I was surprised to see a mere $6.875, that is not my usual amount. I meant to make it higher.

I did call in the end but you know how these things usually turn out. Similar decision to OP's, nice if we'll get some comments on this topic.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:10 PM
ship_it_trebek ship_it_trebek is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ill take eZ stax for 100
Posts: 848
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

Cold calling is bad here. this exact situation is pretty rare. How often do you see UTG open, then UTG+1 3bet him. It's shove or fold. Reads are nice, but since NL50 doesn't 3bet light especially in position, I guess I muck.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:14 PM
Awesemo Awesemo is offline
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Posts: 253
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

i would call preflop and then call a bet on the flop with no k or a, and then decide on the turn
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:57 PM
0524432 0524432 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 461
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

[ QUOTE ]
Funny you should mention this...a hand from yesterday...

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (10 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($20.44)
UTG+1 ($17.37)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+2 ($25.68)</font>
MP1 ($17.10)
MP2 ($26.50)
MP3 ($5.90)
CO ($24.93)
Button ($21.64)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($41.30)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($26.84)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6.875</font>, UTG+2 calls $6.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls $41.20 (All-In), Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]


This is actually not as close to my mock QQ scenario as it would look to some people. KK is behind only one hand PF. Even if it is ahead, the worst hand to be up against is AK sooted, where we still have a solid 66% equity PF.

Just get the $ in with KK. Pls make a different post for that hand to continue discussion pls as it is a different scenario entirely.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:11 PM
0524432 0524432 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 461
Default Re: Mock scenario with QQ facing a lot of PF heat

[ QUOTE ]

This is all assuming that UTG doesn't reraise, if he does then I'll evaluate pot odds with respect of flopping a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no answer to this scenario that does not directly take the UTG raiser's ability to reshove into account.

Also, with 100bb starting stack (as stated in OP) it would be literally impossible for Hero to profitably set mine in UTG were to make any sort of raise. Considering the min raise for UTG would be to $13.5 (leaving $36.5 behind) you could be getting layed ~2.7:1 implied odds which is not even close to +eV. Keeping in mind btw, for UTG to have a hand worth making a raise after all of the action from UTG and HERO in the CO, a minraise in reality is extremely.....unlikely. Meaning 2.7:1 would be the BEST case scenario in terms of odds we could be laid to set mine.
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