|
|
#1
05-18-2007, 01:25 PM
|
|||
|
|||
3 low limit razz hands
im very new to razz so some of these hands may make no sense [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] all of these hands are HU..im guessing HU is the fastest/best way to learn a new game? my goal is to eventually start playing some HORSE.
A re-occurring scenario is on 3rd street when I BI with say a J and villain completes something like 90+% of the hands when he has a 8 or lower showing, what should I call with? I usually call with 2 cards 6 or lower, is this too loose or too tight? on to the hands.. 1. My qustion here is on 6th street, do I bet there? Razz (2/4), Ante 0.40, Bring-In 0.50 (converter) Hero: 49.10 Seat 2: 64.50 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls 4th Street - (0.90 SB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls 5th Street - (1.45 BB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls 6th Street - (3.45 BB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks River - (3.45 BB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls Total pot: (5.45 BB - 21.80) -- 2. what do I do here on 3rd/4th/river? on the river i thought that my T would be better than his T enough to warrant a bet. Razz (2/4), Ante 0.40, Bring-In 0.50 (converter) Hero: 54.20 Seat 2: 78.10 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes 4th Street - (2.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets 5th Street - (2.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets 6th Street - (4.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets River - (6.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls Total pot: (8.20 BB - 32.80) -- 3. Villain would complete most hands so I 3bet him on 3rd. is the rest standard? Razz (2/4), Ante 0.40, Bring-In 0.50 (converter) Seat 1: 43 Hero: 73 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises 4th Street - (4.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets 5th Street - (3.20 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls 6th Street - (5.20 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls River - (7.20 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls Total pot: (9.20 BB - 36.80) 
|
|
#2
05-18-2007, 03:40 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 3 low limit razz hands
Hand 1: I don't mind a bet. You're double paired, yet he's not betting into you, so he's either paired the 6 himself, or he's got a worse low draw. Most likely that he's paired the 6, which would put you ahead. Watch out for the tricky people that try to check-raise here, though.
Hand 2: Fold 4th. Defense is okay on 3rd, but I don't think you can make this call profitably versus his range. Fold 5th as well. I think the river bet's pretty thin, but I like it if this is the same calling station as the first one. Hand 3: 3rd is good, especially if you have an opponent that will raise here with a brick down. I think I fold 5th if I have some respect for my opponent. He's ahead if he has only one 4, 5 or A down. Against a lot of players I could see calling down here, though, even after the A hits on 6th. I would not be surprised to see 87 or T7.
|
|
#4
05-19-2007, 10:22 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 3 low limit razz hands
[ QUOTE ]
1. Bet 7th for value 2. Fold 4th 3. Fine. [/ QUOTE ] 1. The question was really about 6th. 6th is a clear check, since you show two pair (villain will never fold) and he certainly has a good draw to go with his J (i.e. you're behind). 7th is a good time to value bet then since he has to pay you off UI or with a 9 or T low, but will surely raise if he makes a 7 or better. 2. IF villain is pounding your BI with any hole cards when he has a baby showing (as you indicated), then 3rd is a good call. Once you call 3rd, 4th is an AUTOCALL. You're only slightly behind his range with random hole cards, and you still have a lot of "outs" on the next card to catch up to his best possible hand on those occasions when he has it. This is an advanced concept, so very few low limit players would know. But now you do [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
|
|
#5
05-20-2007, 07:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 3 low limit razz hands
[ QUOTE ]
A re-occurring scenario is on 3rd street when I BI with say a J and villain completes something like 90+% of the hands when he has a 8 or lower showing, what should I call with? I usually call with 2 cards 6 or lower, is this too loose or too tight? [/ QUOTE ] Heads up or short-handed, fold any jack, even if the stealer would have raised with any three cards. Heads up at least, I think defending even with a 10 is a losing play. At a full table (the difference being the extra ~1SB in antes), folding a jack with two wheel cards is probably too tight, but it's very close and may still not be worth the trouble against a solid, properly aggressive stealer. [ QUOTE ] Hand1: 5th Street - (1.45 BB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls 6th Street - (3.45 BB) Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks [/ QUOTE ] His call on 5th is awful. Hard to fault either a bet or a check here. [ QUOTE ] 2. what do I do here on 3rd/4th/river? on the river i thought that my T would be better than his T enough to warrant a bet. Razz (2/4), Ante 0.40, Bring-In 0.50 (converter) Hero: 54.20 Seat 2: 78.10 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes [/ QUOTE ] This looks like a good situation, but I think it's about as marginal as it gets. [ QUOTE ] 4th Street - (2.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets [/ QUOTE ] Clear fold (I strongly disagree with SG here). On third, you are about 55/45 with A2T vs **2 (two random cards). On fourth, you are now a 45/55 dog with A2TK vs **2T. Besides being a hot/cold dog, your hand plays very poorly. When you're ahead, you can't extract any value, but he can have you in bad shape for three more BB. He knows almost exactly what you have, while you can't narrow his range from any two cards. The pot is still small. The bet size is about to double. You called on third with a marginal hand, and caught a total brick. Do I need to go on? [ QUOTE ] 5th Street - (2.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets 6th Street - (4.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets [/ QUOTE ] Given that you called on fourth and fifth, and now sixth came good for you and bad for him, you have to raise. If you think there's a decent chance you're still behind, you should have already folded. [ QUOTE ] River - (6.20 BB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls [/ QUOTE ] This is close, but probably right against most opponents. [ QUOTE ] 3. Villain would complete most hands so I 3bet him on 3rd. is the rest standard? [/ QUOTE ] Third is absolutely standard, and would still be a routine reraise even if you had an 8 up. [ QUOTE ] 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes___calls Hero: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___raises [/ QUOTE ] Yes, everything else is routine.
|
|
#6
05-21-2007, 01:40 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 3 low limit razz hands
[ QUOTE ]
Razz (2/4), Ante 0.40, Bring-In 0.50 (converter) Hero: 54.20 Seat 2: 78.10 3rd Street - (0.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes [/ QUOTE ] This looks like a good situation, but I think it's about as marginal as it gets. [ QUOTE ] 4th Street - (2.40 SB) Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets [/ QUOTE ] Clear fold (I strongly disagree with SG here). On third, you are about 55/45 with A2T vs **2 (two random cards). On fourth, you are now a 45/55 dog with A2TK vs **2T. Besides being a hot/cold dog, your hand plays very poorly. When you're ahead, you can't extract any value, but he can have you in bad shape for three more BB. He knows almost exactly what you have, while you can't narrow his range from any two cards. The pot is still small. The bet size is about to double. You called on third with a marginal hand, and caught a total brick. Do I need to go on? [/ QUOTE ] Grapes - This is the kind of hand that will send a message to the opp, and I believe it's a valuable message if you intend to keep playing with him. I also believe that it's a decent value to call in this spot, actually even better than the 3rd st call. You certainly have the creds to weigh in here so I'm not taking your comments lightly, but let me explain my thinking. 1. This is a 2/4 game. The opps in these games are usually not especially experienced, tough, or tricky. In short, they are "trainable" which they may not be at the nosebleed stakes. If an opp is playing laggy, you have to fight back somehow. The best way is to play back at him when your hand (or board) is good enough to allow it, but you also have to make some calls in order not to get run over. Eventually, playing this way against a lag will either make him alter his style somewhat and become more predictable, or set him on tilt. Both are good things. 2. The call on 3rd st falls into this "Don't Tread on Me" category. Even though you're actually AHEAD of the opps probable range if he is completing with any two, your board is bad which puts you at a disadvantage and makes your hand play poorly. That's why we can agree on two things: raising is horrible, calling is marginal. Is there any way to quantify exactly what your high board costs you in EV? I think there is. Based on your statement that this call is "as marginal as it gets" let me presume that it's EV neutral in the long run. If we calculate our EV in an all-in situation, it is clearly +EV however. With an equity of 53%, and needing to call .75 SB into a pot of 1.65 SB, our all-in EV is about 0.5 SB. Where does this value go then when we have to play street by street? It's our "board value" which must be -0.5 SB in this case, making our net EV = 0. 3. On 4th st your board sucks even worse, but since the opp caught a T your actually equity only drops to 44%. Needing to call 1 SB into a pot of 3.4 SB with this equity, our all-in EV is actually 0.9 SB in this spot. SO if our "board value" is the same as it was on 3rd st, then our net EV is now 0.4 SB to call, making that the correct play. 4. I agree it's debatable as to whether our "board value" has changed from 3rd to 4th sts, and if our "BV" becomes much more negative then we'd be wise to fold. I don't believe it does in this case, however. Don't get me wrong a KT board is ugly, but it does have one advantage we didn't have before: position. The only way we're getting value out of this hand is to go deep (at least to 6th st), and with a K showing we're a favorite to have position thru the whole hand. With a T as our high card, the only way this is possible is if the opp shows a 9 high unpaired board, which almost guarantees him a good hand vs. our probable T low. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the value of position is going to be for the rest of the hand, but it will be positive so be very careful about assuming that our board has gotten appreciably "worse" against our opp's from 3rd to 4th sts. The other factor at play here is that many opps will play you for A2 in the hole if you like your hand enough to play with such a bad board. In this case, he'd be right and that reduces the value of your hand. Again, this doesn't change from 3rd to 4th sts however. Summary: The call on 4th st is in fact better than the call on 3rd. If 3rd is a marginal call, 4th is automatic. If 3rd is a bad call, 4th may be only marginal. If opp catches a 9 on 4th st instead, then our equity goes down to 37% and our BV goes in the tank. Cut and run.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
