Bible Club: Exodus

[ChrisV]

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So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions?

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What abstract moral do you think we should draw from the Exodus story? That the just thing to do if a country has an evil dictator is unleash destruction on the populace?

You can't even draw the moral that God will look after his own, since this immediately begs the question of why an omnipotent God allowed his chosen people to become enslaved in the first place. Taking a siesta, maybe.

[madnak]

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The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being.

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M^2,
So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions?

I mean at one point we have the children of Israel who are slaves in Egypt. Then God performed a series of dazzling miracles and gets them out. Now they have their freedom and are heading for the Promised Land.
(Warning! Plot Spoiler) But they never got there. Why not?

Well, they griped about the food - they had just been delivered from slavery and they are complaining about the food?!
They whined and cried and griped about the water. In the desert they HAD water to drink, but... it didn't taste that good?!
They whined and complained about the leadership... that had just delivered them from slavery?!
They complained that it was too hot, too cold, too far, too difficult, too rocky.
They whined and cried for years - forty to be exact.
Finally, God said, "that's it - I've had it - Trip Cancelled!"

Can you find any moral to this story at all?

I know this sounds facetious, but I'm really not trying to be. This is just boggling my mind.

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This isn't lost on us. Yes, it has a similar structure to a fable in some ways. But the ant didn't vivisect the grasshopper, the tortoise didn't commit genocide on hares. Let me tell you the story of the fox and the grapes.

The fox raped the hen. Then he broke her neck, but she was still alive. He ripped her innards out while she squirmed. Then he found the monkey and asked to meet his family. The monkey showed the fox to his home, and the fox barricaded the door and burned the whole house down with the monkey family inside it. Then the fox saw some grapes, but he couldn't get them. Then the fox lined up all the hen's chicks and swallowed them up one by one. They died in his stomach. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention - when the fox didn't get the grapes, he said they were sour or something.

Isn't that just the most pleasant fable?

You can't arbitrarily omit some elements, string together others, and clarify ambiguities, and then claim that you have the message of the original work. Particularly when the original work is full of gratuitous atrocities.

[madnak]

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So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions?

[/ QUOTE ]

What abstract moral do you think we should draw from the Exodus story? That the just thing to do if a country has an evil dictator is unleash destruction on the populace?

You can't even draw the moral that God will look after his own, since this immediately begs the question of why an omnipotent God allowed his chosen people to become enslaved in the first place. Taking a siesta, maybe.

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No, they disobeyed him then, too. In fact, that's pretty much all they ever did. God didn't choose his people too well.

[John21]

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What abstract moral do you think we should draw from the Exodus story?

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With the last example I gave, I'd say the moral would be that for people who are not grateful for what they have, and spend all their time complaining about what they don’t have, things don't work out well for them.

[John21]

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You can't arbitrarily omit some elements, string together others, and clarify ambiguities, and then claim that you have the message of the original work. Particularly when the original work is full of gratuitous atrocities.

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Do you agree that the interpretation's you've made are dramatically different than the interpretation of any religious person?

Are you saying the problem with religious people is that they're not accurately interpreting the Bible?

I really must be missing something here.

[madnak]

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You can't arbitrarily omit some elements, string together others, and clarify ambiguities, and then claim that you have the message of the original work. Particularly when the original work is full of gratuitous atrocities.

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Do you agree that the interpretation's you've made are dramatically different than the interpretation of any religious person?

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No. I think a large majority of people who've read the Bible, including (perhaps especially) Christians, come to similar conclusions. Most Christians (at least in the US) believe that people like me (and other unbelievers) will be tortured eternally, and that this is the way things should be.

Are you missing something? Well, I sure am. I don't see how anyone could possibly believe such a terrible thing. But they do.

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Are you saying the problem with religious people is that they're not accurately interpreting the Bible?

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There are many problems with religion. I think one common problem of religious people is that they've never even read the Bible (I'd wager 90%+ of Christians). Another is that they put the cultural myth of compassionate Christianity over the actual scriptures. And another is that they have a strong and disturbing ability to "look the other way" when awful things happen (not just in fiction, but in real life as well).

World War 2 proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that the pressures of authority and society can drive large groups of ordinary people to do (not just stand by for, but actually take part in) sickening things. I think Christians are comparable to the Nazis. Most of whom were not horrible monsters, but decent people who (due to the peculiarities of human psychology) believed horrible things and acted in horrible ways.

The Bible directly describes rape, murder, torture, genocide, and disease as desirable things and deserved punishments (directly delivered by God himself). This is a fact. Whatever message the Bible is designed to express, unless it's something very subtle, intricate and ironic (think de Sade) it could be expressed without such barbaric content. And certainly without the direct advocation of such content. At best, the Bible is a deeply flawed and horribly inept attempt at a good message. At worst, it's a stellar example of a bad message. Either way, it has no place being held up as an example, much less an ideal.

[Magic_Man]

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The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being.

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M^2,
So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions?

I mean at one point we have the children of Israel who are slaves in Egypt. Then God performed a series of dazzling miracles and gets them out. Now they have their freedom and are heading for the Promised Land.
(Warning! Plot Spoiler) But they never got there. Why not?

Well, they griped about the food - they had just been delivered from slavery and they are complaining about the food?!
They whined and cried and griped about the water. In the desert they HAD water to drink, but... it didn't taste that good?!
They whined and complained about the leadership... that had just delivered them from slavery?!
They complained that it was too hot, too cold, too far, too difficult, too rocky.
They whined and cried for years - forty to be exact.
Finally, God said, "that's it - I've had it - Trip Cancelled!"

Can you find any moral to this story at all?

I know this sounds facetious, but I'm really not trying to be. This is just boggling my mind.

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I think you must have misread my original quote; I meant that the OP (original post) summed up the thoughts that I had after reading Exodus, so I didn't feel compelled to repeat those thoughts in detail. I did have some preconceived idea that the OT god might be evil, but I specifically did not think him worse than, say, Hitler. AFTER reading Exodus, I don't see how you couldn't think so, so this is pretty much the opposite of bias. I do agree that you can see a moral in the story, but part of the problem is that this is one of the passages that many Christians seem to think really did happen. Even if it is completely metaphorical or hyperbole, Madnak has pointed out above that this is a horrible way to tell a fable.

[txag007]

1. Archeology indicates Nazareth existed as far back as the 7th century B.C. (I know your link referred to a "gap" before resettlement, but it wouldn't let me read anything about this "gap" without purchasing the reports, and I'm certainly not going to do that).

2. The Anchor Bible Dictionary contains evidence in the form of Herodian tombs that show Nazareth being settled at the time of Jesus.

3. The name of Nazareth shows up on a first century synagogue inscription at Caesarea.

[txag007]

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Dinosaur bones is actually palentology of course but these absolutely destroy Genesis.


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No, it doesn't, but I'll certainly give you the opportunity to show me how.