Bible Club: Exodus

madnak · #1 01-31-2007, 02:59 PM

Yes, I'm bad. I haven't finished it yet. Also I've pretty much given up on being a "nice guy."

The plagues of Egypt were awful.

Ostensibly, God is trying to convince Pharaoh to let his people leave. And yet, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." It sounds almost like he wants to drop as many plagues as possible. To impress the Egyptians? Why wouldn't God soften Pharaoh's heart, instead of hardening it? And hey, why bother with the Pharaoh at all? We know God is powerful enough to ferry the Israelites away without Pharaoh's permission. It seems like God just wants to torture the Egyptians.

First the Nile turns to blood, the fish die, and the water becomes undrinkable. That's famine. The upper classes might not be affected too much, because they have plenty stored up, but the lower classes (especially the slaves) will likely begin to starve. Then come the frogs - at least there's something to eat! Then the flies devastate the land and bring disease to the people. Many are certainly dying at this point. But God's not through yet - all the livestock have to die. Conditions are now absolutely torturous in Egypt. Then the boils - it sounds like severe, festering networks of them. Then the hail that destroyed anything left after the insects and plague. You wonder what the locusts had to eat. But it was clear that after them "nothing green was left on tree or plant of the field through all the land of Egypt." Half the population must be starving at this point, the economy is shattered beyond repair, Egyptians will be living in misery for decades to come (the lucky ones that live, anyhow). BUT AGAIN THE LORD HARDENS PHARAOH'S HEART! Yes, again, God himself decides he's not through yet, and hardens Pharaoh's heart to make him refuse Moses and Aaron. God really wants to keep this song-and-dance routine going. The darkness is just a teaser, everyone's probably delirious from hunger anyhow. The main event - he kills off every firstborn, from the Pharaoh's to the slave girl's. A tragedy for old Pharaoh, but absolute doom for the farmers and slaves, who depend on the firstborn son to get much of the necessary work done - Egypt is in pandemonium, the people are suffering torment upon torment... God's work is finally done.

But hey, at least he decided not the harden Pharaoh's heart this time. Joy?

This is one of the cruelest and most absurd stories in the whole book, and I challenge anyone to explain the "moral" to me. Other than, "when God wants his fireworks, God damn well gets his fireworks."

Leviticus is another fun one - since I'm not done with Exodus I'm going to postone Leviticus until two weeks from now.

New001 · #2 01-31-2007, 03:58 PM

Not much to add except that I agree with this here and I'll be hopping on board once you get to Numbers (where I've kinda left off).

CallMeIshmael · #3 01-31-2007, 03:59 PM

let my people go, ftw

jogsxyz · #4 01-31-2007, 04:44 PM

Moses lived 120 years. The oldest person on earth now is only 114 years. Been having a new oldest person every two or three weeks lately.
How could Moses live that long?

jogsxyz · #5 01-31-2007, 04:47 PM

Does Exodus acknowledge the existence of the Greeks?
Maybe the bible is just a history book written by peoples with a extremely narrow view.

John21 · #6 01-31-2007, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the cruelest and most absurd stories in the whole book, and I challenge anyone to explain the "moral" to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the story starts a little earlier with the burning bush. There's the message from God to Moses when He gives His name as I AM THAT I AM. And basically tells Moses to go rescue His people, who then become "The People of the I AM" or Israel, from their misery.

So we have the, "I Am" which when looked at from a personal level is essentially the core of our being, that in this story is being held captive and it's (the I Am's) enslavement is causing the person's misery. Then there's the rational arguments, pleas, etc., none of which work and then the ruthless destruction of all those elements causing the enslavement that is met with a great deal of stubbornness and resistance from the captor. It all finally ends with the I Am freeing itself and vowing never to return to the captivity.

That's the short version, but looked at from this perspective the "moral" of the story is pretty clear.

vhawk01 · #7 01-31-2007, 05:18 PM

I have a question that hopefully NR will answer, although its obviously open to everyone. How does God's 'hardening of the Pharaoh's heart' jive with all of this free-will, God can't make a Bible that is more easily understood business? I mean, didn't he directly interfere with Pharaoh's free will, making it far harder for him to be moved by the displays? Of course he didn't FORCE him to be unmoved, but he did the next best thing. How much meddling with our free will is God allowed?

Silent A · #8 01-31-2007, 05:24 PM

If you take the biblical time line seriously, this would have happened sometime around 1300 BC, or several centuries before the Greeks became significant.

The main problem with this story from a historical perspective is that we can find archeological evidence for much smaller and older events but can't find a trace of anything approximately like this horror ... Nevermind the complete lack of any evidence the Jews were ever a nation of slaves in Egypt in the first place.

Silent A · #9 01-31-2007, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course he didn't FORCE him to be unmoved, but he did the next best thing. How much meddling with our free will is God allowed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the way I read it, God makes it literally impossible for Pharaoh to be moved.

I also find this quote from the beginning of Exodus 14 to be most telling (NIV):

Exodus 14

1 Then the LORD said to Moses,
2 "Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon.
3 Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.'
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD."

dknightx · #10 01-31-2007, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question that hopefully NR will answer, although its obviously open to everyone. How does God's 'hardening of the Pharaoh's heart' jive with all of this free-will, God can't make a Bible that is more easily understood business? I mean, didn't he directly interfere with Pharaoh's free will, making it far harder for him to be moved by the displays? Of course he didn't FORCE him to be unmoved, but he did the next best thing. How much meddling with our free will is God allowed?

[/ QUOTE ]

there are a couple of answers (which you can google fairly easily if you really care), but i know that none of them will satisfy you (i can even admit they can be a bit reaching), so let's not waste everyone's time.