Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Other Poker > Omaha/8

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-05-2007, 11:46 PM
howzit howzit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATM 500 max
Posts: 845
Default LO8

lately, i've only been posting hands where i get fancy. and too be honest, i could beat my regular game playing ABC. but that gets boring and i also don't get to play in these marginal spots.

i limp A926 double suited UTG, one call (steamer), young kid playing good raises button. blinds call, and we both call.

flop: A95. checked to me, i bet, call, kid raises. blinds fold. i call? (button raises here almost all the time with any two way draw and will check behind turn)

turn: J, two diamonds. i lead? MP calls, button tanks and raises. i tank and call, MP calls.

river: K. i check, MP checks, button bets. i tank and fold based on a read.


caveat: raising flop or turn will not get me HU with either player.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:08 AM
Rush17 Rush17 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Atlantic City
Posts: 216
Default Re: LO8

[ QUOTE ]

caveat: raising flop or turn will not get me HU with either player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that because you read the utg for a nut low/wheel draw, or, do you just feel that he wouldn't fold because he's still steaming, or just doesn't understand the value(or lackthereof) of hands?

I think, if you are ahead of the button, it's probably not by much, and if he has 3 A's, then you're obviously way behind and your 62 might not be the best low draw either.

Given the "caveat", I would either check/call the whole way (hope your hand holds up/improves), or, check/fold.

If you can't knock the middle player out by checkraising the button or betting straight out, then why do either? To me, this hand is either WA or WB to the button, and your low draw is a little too iffy for backup in a 3-way pot, and especially if the utg steamer woudn't throw away a low draw that wasn't the lock draw yet still better than your 62.

So, if continuing, I would keep the pot small and check/call opposed to putting in 2-3 bets on the flop. Keep in mind, that, if the button didn't flop a set(or a hand like A24/A23, then like you pointed out, he'll check behind on the turn anyway. And, because your hand really isn't that strong (but it is, imo, good enough to continue with)and because you can't knock out either of them with aggression, then keeping the pot as small as possible is what I'd be looking to/willing to accomplish against 2 opponents.

By the way, when you lead the turn, did you pick up the nut flush draw? If so, fine, if not, then I don't care for your bet, again, given the caveat.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:17 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 3,633
Default Re: LO8

Hi Howzit -
[ QUOTE ]
i limp A926 double suited UTG, one call (steamer), young kid playing good raises button. blinds call, and we both call.

[/ QUOTE ]Fine.
[ QUOTE ]
flop: A95. checked to me, i bet, call, kid raises. blinds fold. i call? (button raises here almost all the time with any two way draw and will check behind turn)

[/ QUOTE ]I'd re-raise. Put some pressure on the players behind you.

The way you played on the flop, you didn't give Button any reason to pause on the next betting round. He may think you're drawing for low and betting on the come.

[ QUOTE ]
turn: J, two diamonds. i lead? MP calls, button tanks and raises. i tank and call, MP calls.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. I'd lead (with or without the flop re-raise). Note that you might not have gotten raised here if you had re-raised on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
river: K. i check, MP checks, button bets. i tank and fold based on a read.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree with the check. But I would not fold. I don't know what your read is. Button could be betting a missed low board or betting aces and sixes or worse.

I count 15 big bets in the pot and the cost to you is one big bet. If Button is only bluffing one time out of 15 you'll break even. If Button bluffs or bets poorly more than one time in 15, you have a positive e.v.

Folding on the river here is very poor, in my humble opinion. Sorry.

Buzz
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:47 AM
howzit howzit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATM 500 max
Posts: 845
Default Re: LO8

rush, the guy in the middle is stuck huge and is 100% station. so i can't raise to knock out a 43 low draw.

the reason why i didn't check the diamond turn was that 1) i'm way ahead of MP's range. probably got him crushed.

2) button will probably slow down once i donk. this has to be the first time i can remember that i check/called flop, lead turn. but then he played it like the Jack helped him so he either had set of aces or Aces/Jacks.

of course, like buzz said, if i had 3 bet the flop, i'd probably get more info.

anyway, i called the turn because i'm probalby crushing MP, and the button is aggressve enough with a two way draw on the turn for me to still be ahead.


def a situation where i was a bit lost but given the unclear pool of equity we use to gauge opponents, i wasn't convinced i was dead on the turn because the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turned up.

it was a tough spot.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-06-2007, 07:40 PM
Rush17 Rush17 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Atlantic City
Posts: 216
Default Re: LO8

This is probably one of those rare occasions where I disagree with both you and Buzz. (I must be wrong, then!=) But, I'll tell you why I feel this way anyway...


Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information. But, you said yourself that, if the button has a 2-way draw (like TP/TK with a wheel draw combo, for example), then he's going to play it aggressively here. So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much, and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?). Anyway...

You also said, that, even if he did flop a 2-way draw, his tendency would be to check behind on the turn unimproved. So, when you do bet the turn and he raises you...you're no good! And, I can't believe that you and Buzz think you are! The way you described him, he either has 3 Aces or top two pair along with either the nut flush draw and/or a really good low draw. I can't put him on just top pair with a nut flush draw because he wouldn't be raising you on the turn.

The river King is an awful card for you, because he has to know that if you have top two, you're not folding, and, if he just rivered top two, then he's probably good, hence the bet. In order for him to fire another bet, he has to have you beat *going by your description of him*. I mean really, what are you giving him in this spot, Aces with a Q/Ten kicker?

You may have had MP crushed, but there's still a third player involved who never backed down to you. I don't like a river call one bit. Let me rephrase that because that's not exactly what I mean. I think, you may have to call the river due to pot size, but that has been my point about this hand. And, I know you disagree, but in this spot, given the whole situation...my goal would be to keep the pot small.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:40 PM
howzit howzit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATM 500 max
Posts: 845
Default Re: LO8

[ QUOTE ]


Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information. But, you said yourself that, if the button has a 2-way draw (like TP/TK with a wheel draw combo, for example), then he's going to play it aggressively here. So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much, and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?).

[/ QUOTE ] excellent choice of words.

[ QUOTE ]
You also said, that, even if he did flop a 2-way draw, his tendency would be to check behind on the turn unimproved. So, when you do bet the turn and he raises you...you're no good!

[/ QUOTE ] i know! anybody else i think i would fold but this kid actually can think at a higher level and is capable of putting me to the test with a semibluff.(he was the kid i ran the river c/r bluff on so he knows i'm not his standard opponent)

i also picked up a live read of weakness for high from him but i didn't include that in the OP cuz it's not fair to include live reads when discussing theortics. so i stayed committed to see a non-diamond low card to pay off on.

[ QUOTE ]
The river King is an awful card for you, because he has to know that if you have top two, you're not folding, and, if he just rivered top two, then he's probably good, hence the bet. In order for him to fire another bet, he has to have you beat *going by your description of him*. I mean really, what are you giving him in this spot, Aces with a Q/Ten kicker? ...my goal would be to keep the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ] blah. he's never really bluffing me here giving his turn raise and our history. i folded (thank you live poker)

i agree 100% keep the pot small outside this game. luckily this game is so good that i'll live with the fact that i just mucked getting 15:1.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:44 PM
howzit howzit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ATM 500 max
Posts: 845
Default Re: LO8

results:

guy behind me called.

kid had AK63, with diamonds. MP mucked.

i really like his turn raise against me. if an unknown did that to me, i would fold. i also wouldn't bet turn against an unknown either so i guess it's a wash.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:18 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 3,633
Default Re: LO8

[ QUOTE ]
Howzit, you and Buzz feel that had you 3 bet the flop, you probably would've received more information.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Rush - I didn't write that, and I wasn't exactly thinking that.

It's pretty hard to put Button on cards here. Lots of possibilities including not much at all.

Yes, he's probably going to play aggressively with a good hand, but I think he might also play aggressively without one - possibly simply with a reasonable draw. Howzit declared Button was a good player and part of being a good player is being not too predictable and bending a rule here or there.

[ QUOTE ]
So, I don't think the flop reraise is going to give you all that much,

[/ QUOTE ]I think it might make both MP and Button more wary and less inclined to take a flier.

[ QUOTE ]
and to where it would help you to play the turn card with any more preciseness(is that a word?).

[/ QUOTE ]I think "preciseness" is a word. Should be, if it isn't. I don't disagree that a re-raise would help Hero play the turn more optimally, but I don't think flop raises generally serve that function.

But although I didn't write it and wasn't thinking it, now that you mention it, I don't think it's impossible that Hero won't gain some information. Depends. And Hero might somehow see how to better play the turn on the basis of the reactions of his opponents. Specifically, I think Button might be inclined to back off at least a bit on the turn without the nuts himself.

And thus, maybe not directly, but more subtly, Hero might have a better idea of how to proceed on the river.

Seems like somehow Howzit did know what to do on the river in this particular case, but another time things might be different.

What do you think?

Buzz
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-13-2007, 02:05 PM
Rush17 Rush17 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Atlantic City
Posts: 216
Default Re: LO8

Hey Buzz,

I guess there is a better chance that the button doesn't take a flier if we handle the flop differently. I agree with that. I guess it's just Howzit's position that makes things uglier from where I'm sitting, but...

And, thanks for the clarification, I don't know why I thought you said something that you didn't. My bad.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.