Insane HH from Niagara 10k involving THE Vanessa Rousso (and Shaniac)

[Ansky]

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yay ansky.

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the legend himself approves

[MLG]

its just so rediculous that people cant see why this is bad in the same thread where we are in a spot with a nonautomatic decision and the 2nd nuts.

[Requin]

Guess I'm a nit, I saw this and thought snap fold

In all fairlness MLG there's a bad super laggy player in the SB, and the action won't always be this intense on the flop.

Oh you know what I was reading this like a 6max hand, I don't have much to say about FR preflop standards.

[Ansky]

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

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i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

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i'm not sure how u determine from me raising 74s that I open 90% of pots from utg+1. i'm probably opening something like

22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,43s,AJo+,KQo

maybe a few more suited connectors and maybe A9s. That's less than 20% of hands.

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If you want to get better at poker dan, you should stop playing 17% of hands utg. And we both know that your listed range is [censored] and u raise at least 20 more hands than that.

[getballed]

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djk you have no concept of the unreal bad reverse implied odds you have here w/ 74s 400bb deep. This isn't "tournament" deep, this is legit deepstacked poker. One of the reason super deepstacked tournaments are so +EV early on is that tournament players have no concept of what 400bb deep poker means.

When you are 100bb-150bb, even 200bb, you have a good stack for winning enough big pots against overplayed 1 pair hands, and you can flop a big draw sometimes, and u can just take down a decent sized pot w/ whatever sometimes because your hand is so disguised. When you have 400bb, you are way more likely to have a 2nd best hand if you get into a huge pot, and this hand is perfect evidence of it.

Think of it this way... When you are 100bbs deep it is very reasonable to stack 1 pair hands with 74s. When you make a 2nd best hand (but a strong one), you will potentially lose 100bb at most. When you make a 7 high flush raising utg into 8 players.... how often do you think u will win if u get into a huge pot w/ 400bb stacks? Far less often.

The deeper u get here, the more important nut drawing hands become. 98s would be an ok raise here, but 74s is just not good enough. Using the excuse that its deep and 3 bbs doesnt matter, or cause it's live and you are bored is just bad poker.

ALSO, the really obvious reason that I prob dont need to explain... POSITION. utg is not the button, so stop playing like it is. Unless you only get called by the blinds, you will be out of position with 400bbs. And believe it or not, but being OOP is MUCH worse deep, because now you are guaranteed to be OOP on many more decisions.

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Very good post, IMO. However wouldnt she be making the same raise with a set here. A huge reraise doesnt guarantee 97 and cant really take us off 2nd nuts

[Ansky]

getballed i think this is a shove 90% of the time like i said , but live i can imagine myself folding this. It's very much a "you had to be there" moment.

[dmk]

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yay ansky.

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the legend himself approves

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wtf? i didn't post yet. but i approve too.

stop being a bunch of spewtards yo

[registrar]

Just to clarify, what % of the time that SB checks with the intention to raise, does she follow through with that intention whatever the action behind? Her check-raising range is surely fairly wide here.

[dmk]

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Just to clarify, what % of the time that SB checks with the intention to raise, does she follow through with that intention whatever the action behind? Her check-raising range is surely fairly wide here.

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i was just trying to put together a post that said that my impression of vanessa is that she almost never check/3-bet bluffs in this spot. but defining what her actual range is is still kinda difficult. i've recalled her doing some retarded raise-spewy stuff as well as check/calling where raising was way better. so its hard to define a reliable range and, like ansky said, you probably had to be there. i'd struggle to fold this. but i might.

[DLizzle]

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btw preflop is really bad, and i love how ppl use "its deepstacked" as an excuse to play horribly bad preflop poker.

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i don't understand why raising here is so bad? i'd raise here every time, especially in a live tourney since it's so boring. is it because we are really really deep? would you raise 74s here with 100-200 bbs? what sc's would you raise in this spot 400bbs deep?

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what would be the purpose of your raise? If you'd raise here everytime, you must be opening about 90% of pots, which is obviously not good. just because we're deep doesn't make preflop irrelevant or mean that you can just throw chips in. every time you feel like it. I feel like a lot of tournament players perceive 400bbs as an infinitely deep stack because they're used to playing with 20-30bbs or whatever. Raising 47s here isn't a horrible large spew but it's still not a good play, so why do it?

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i'm not sure how u determine from me raising 74s that I open 90% of pots from utg+1. i'm probably opening something like

22+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T7s+,96s+,85s+,74s+,64s+,5 4s,43s,AJo+,KQo

maybe a few more suited connectors and maybe A9s. That's less than 20% of hands.

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I meant in any position, but anyway it wasn't much of a serious point to be argued. Ansky is running a clinic in here so just read his posts. His post about reverse implied odds and all that was exactly what needed to be said regarding the discussion that is going on.