QQ preflop and flop...fairly standard spot

[Chomp]

CO: 18/14 (550 hands). TAG reg - seems to play nittier than stats suggest.
BN: 37/15 (50 hands). Hard to know what to make of this over such a small sample.

Preflop and flop comments please. I'll post the next action if there is interest.

Thanks

.........................

Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button <font color="#C00000">Button ($83.75)</font>
SB Hero ($50.00)
BB ($61.60)
UTG ($54.62)
CO ($49.00)

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
1 fold, CO raises to $2.00, Button raises to $7.00, Hero calls $6.75, 2 folds.

Flop ($16.50) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero...

[Ramana]

I hope you didn't call for setvalue pf. And that's a perfect flop for QQ. CRAI seems good to me, you can't put him on AA KK with such stats, even though the samplesize is too small obv.

[corsakh]

Never ever smooth call preflop 3bets without AA. Your just giving the original raiser a green light to push.

[monkeymaps]

I just make it like 18-20 preflop.
as played, cr/AI seems ok agianst most of his range.

[Chomp]

Sorry guys, I should know the answer to this, but why 4b pre? We only occasionally get calls from worse hands (JJ/TT/Ax), always get pushes from trouble hands (AA/KK/AK), and fold out hands we are ahead of but that might pay us off post (AJ/AQ hitting a J/Q for example).

Given this fact, and the fact QQ is pretty close in equity terms to a random 3b range:

Hand 0: 58.904% { QQ }
Hand 1: 41.096% { TT+, AJs+, AJo+ }

...why is a call wrong with an intention to felt (say crai) any non-A/K board? That way, we catch AK/TT/JJ/air/random crap/draws that cb and lose to AA/KK, which is fine as we would have been owned by these hands pre anyway if we had 5b?

And on preflop, do we call the 5b push?

Fwiw, I checked flop with the intention of crai, which was my plan when I called preflop.

[monkeymaps]

think every thing you said makes sense. OOP I just always tend to be more agressive. But maybe the equity you gain post flop by just calling preflop is more important then 4 betting here.

[Chomp]

Any further thoughts on 4b QQ pre? I think it's a pretty important question that touches on lots of fundamentals.

Fwiw, here's a current SS thread about the same thing, although this hand is 3way. Dan Bitel expresses a forceful opinion on the matter in this thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

[bozzer]

play for stacks....

[bozzer]

Chomp, 60% equity against the 3b range is a decent chunk, and probably enough that you are willing to raise for protection* even if not for value (I doubt that you are ahead of a calling range).

*actually is this valid here? usually i use this phrase to mean bet so that draws are making a mistake by calling. i guess that we could do that here, but we agree that such a mistake is unlikely.

[MoP_86]

ok well if you're not 4-betting you're calling for set value? or shoving any flops that do not contain an Ace or King?