tough spots with SPMK when another overcard turns

[rzk]

villain is 39/13/1.2 37 352hands

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 6BB

[bigmac366]

if your gonna c/r the flop you must lead the turn imo.....

river fold is good

[frenchpignouf]

I fold the flop. Btn is not agressive, there is 4 people inthe pot, so he has something and it's not a draw prolly. If he has an ace, and it 's quite likely because he don't raise much, you have 5 outs (in fact 4-4.5 because he has at least 8 outs if you spike a T). If he has KJ or QJ you have just 3 outs. CO can have a hand and it is 5 to 1. You can fold the best hand, but it is better to fold the best hand on the flop than on the turn.

[rzk]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop. Btn is not agressive, there is 4 people inthe pot, so he has something and it's not a draw prolly. If he has an ace, and it 's quite likely because he don't raise much, you have 5 outs (in fact 4-4.5 because he has at least 8 outs if you spike a T). If he has KJ or QJ you have just 3 outs. CO can have a hand and it is 5 to 1. You can fold the best hand, but it is better to fold the best hand on the flop than on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's hard to believe we should give up so soon when he could easily have a gutshot, J low kicker or a low PP. perhaps c/c flop is better hoping we improve or the turn gets checked through? i'm still confused about this hand.

[Leader]

This is a place to lead the flop IMO. You would really rather people fold not trap them in the pot. Plus BT is pretty passive. There's no guarantee he bets a lot of worse hands. Turn kind of shows why c/r is not so good. A queen is a really bad card for you here. Every gs or random Qx just made a better hand. Kx is now going to continue. Having c/r'ed, it's between bet/fold and c/f. I guess I'd bet and hope he folds a 6/PP. The way you played it fold the river.

[frenchpignouf]

A read would be helpfull. It is very stupid to bet a gutshot on the button four way and his AF is 1.2, so I dont't think he has a gutshot to often.

If you are ahead, if CO has nothing and if he miss the turn, c/r and lead is fine but it is a lot of if. It is an investment of 4sb in order to win 6sb, not enough imho.

[frenchpignouf]

I'm ok with lead the flop, at least you have a chance to win the pot, and you gain some information.

[rzk]

ok, so if we lead the flop here, why is it bad to lead the flop in this hand, which i posted recently:

villain is 47/19/1.7 wtsd39 365hands

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>

here the consensus was that a better line would be to c/c the flop. i understand that my hand is much weaker here because if i bet i'll get more calls on average since many overcards will peel. but for the same reasons protection is much more important here. it would be pretty bad for the flop to get checked around here. that's why i decided to bet - hoping that maybe 2 opponents will fold right away and the last one will fold on the turn.

so what am i missing here - in other words, if it's ok to lead out in the OP hand, why then is it not ok to lead out here?

[sg23]

Just going on the hand excerpt you posted, the texture of the boards are too different to equate the jacks hand with the 4s hand. With the jacks, you've got an uncoordinated board and are ahead of limped hands much of the time. You lead out in that spot to a) get people to fold b) get more information about where you stand. If you are called and/or raised, then you can continue/reevaluate based on your opponents' narrowed range.

With the 4s, you could be beaten in myriad ways even if you currently have the best hand. Not just overcards but limped pocket pairs and still stronger hands and draws. The board and the pot offer many reasons for your opponents to stay in the hand for one or more bets. With three people behind you, check in this spot to get some info from their actions.