M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[SimaoMacaco]

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I'm on the list [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] i get it now, i don't know why that took me so long lol

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I guess I'm outta the loop. I don't get it.

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It took me a while.. and some help.. bottomset is cleva

[HesseJam]

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Ulkis,

Yes, you are correct when you say that poker is hard. But the shortie isn't playing poker. He's playing a differant game called "shove."

It's hand range vs hand range. Mr. McShove buys in for 20bb at a table where everyone else had 100bb. (That's the key point - That everyone else had a big stack and he doesn't.)

The big stackers are, for the most part, playing hands that rely on implied odds - Hands like SCs & suited gappers, small pairs, suited aces & kings, etc. Hand distrobution indicated that when a big stack enters a pot for a raise or calls a raise, it is far more likely that he's playing one of these implied odds hands rather than a big pair.

The shortie isn't playing implied odds hands. He's playing hands like AK, AQ, KQ & JJ+. And remember - most flops miss most players. So when the shortie shoves on the flop, even unimproved, the vast majority of the time he is likely to either have his opponent crushed or be just a very small dog.

So hand range plus fold equity makes it profitable in the long run for the shortie to shove any flop that he sees head's up. If you don't belive that, then why is your c-bet percentage so high? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Yes, a good deep stack player can adjust his range and start to play top pair poker vs the shortie. But in doing so he's offering great implied odds to the other deep stack players at the table.

And that is the advantage that the shortie had over the deep stack player. The deep stack player has to play with the specter of the other deep stack players at the table felting him. He has to watch out for reverse implied odds and play four streets of poker.

Mr. McShove doesn't have to do that. By playing Shove, he only has to play two streets and doesn't have to worry about odds at all.



[i](If any group of hard core limit hold'em players ever got it into their heads to kill internet NL cash and drive all the fish back to limit hold'em, they could open a "boiler room," train 12-16 players to work in shifts, multi-tabling 16 tables of NL cash 24/7 on all the major poker sites across all limits. It wouldn't take long for a "MIT Poker Team" to kill the game and drive off the fish.)

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Kudos from me to you. Very well expressed.

[diebitter]

Phydaux

well said!


There is another reason I SS sometimes that I haven't mentioned before, and that is sometimes I'm in the mood to 1- or 2-table, and can't find an obviously juicy table.

Here I load up the first 12-tables (or 24 now, I guess) with the highest plrs/flop, and just play them for 15 minutes or so. This gives me enough stats often to target the marks on one or two decent tables and close the rest down. If it doesn't, I just SS till I find something.

[Steelerman]

So is it stupid to think that a strategy as simple as raising AK, AQ, KQ & JJ+ and pushing all flops would be at least breakeven?

Edit: I guess adding in some kind of blind stealing strategy would be the way to go as the blinds would kill your profit if you only played this narrow of a range.

[ImsaKidd]

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I ate dinner once with Imsa and he said a lot of people hate him...

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Its funny because hes a really nice kidd in real life

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[ImsaKidd]

I skimmed through this thread and I gotta say most of the stuff is ridiculous.

1: Your potential profit wth ss'ing is limited. You arent going to approach the winrates of the best fullstackers. You can play higher and with less variance than your 100bb stakes. Compared to 100bb, it is much easier to adjust when moving up.

2: Anyone explaining SS strategy in a few sentences is pretty far off base. This includes Ed Miller. Any sort of grossly simplified strategy like "play AQ+, TT+, add 88+ late position" is just bad. You have to put in a LOT of time with pokerstove, as well as playing hands so you identify spots where you can improve.

3: Game quality. Even if whatever info is posted creates a bunch of .25ptbb/100 guys, the effect on game quality would be nasty. This isnt really something anyone should want.

I'm not real sure on why MT2R wants to post this kinda stuff, seems counterproductive. I'm also not sure how accurate what he posts would be, I guess I can evaluate that when it comes up.

[ImsaKidd]

Oh yeah, i've been contemplating adding some FR tables to my mix, so maybe i'll have a better idea of how accurate these suggestions are after I play more FR.

[King Spew]

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I guess I'm outta the loop. I don't get it.

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BT2
AceCR8
nation

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[ImsaKidd]

Cry me a river
Honestryan
Oakrdrzfan
Osh

Calleddownlight
Hklm8383
Oah(s)
Okerboy(1p)


I took some creative license with names, sorry.

[phydaux]

This is something that I frankly don't understand.

We have guys on this site like pokey & Cry Me A River who make masterful posts again and again that diligent members can read, discuss and use to become skilled poker players.

And no one has a problem with that. In fact, that's exactly why we all come here. To improve our poker play.

But when it comes to short stack information, some people become down right paranoid.

Why are we afraid to help shorties improve their skills, but we bend over backward to help out full stackers?

It doesn't make sense. Either we help other players, or we don't. Either there are enough fish to feed us all, or there aren't.

To you guys who are paranoid and "hold back" in discussions of short stacking, let me ask you this:

Do you also hold back and not share everything you know in discussions of full stack poker? If that's true, would you ever pass along wrong strategy or information, so you can "keep your edge?"