Psychological tips please

[CoronalDischarge]

Basically, I have been blessed and cursed in my poker career. Thanks to booking a (for me) huge win, I was able (and, i thought, ready) to quit my job and have a crack at being an online pro. Unfortunately I have been struggling and I know the problem has more to do with mentality and consistency than with ability. Here's the story:

I started playing seriously about 15 months ago. I bought all the best books, studied hard, played hard, and got good pretty rapidly. 8 months ago I was lucky enough to win the Fort Knox jackpot on the iPoker network. This is (or rather was then, they have changed it a bit) a $100k prize for winning six 6-handed s'n'gs consecutively. Although i was certainly lucky, I should put this in perspective for those who consider this to be a 'donk n go' lottery. A very good player might win 1 in of 3 of these. The probablity of winning 6 in a row would then be 3 to the power 6, which is 729 sets of 6 . i.e. a v. good player would have to play 4374 tourneys in order to expect a jackpot. I actually won 5 in a row the week before and had been doing very nicely in the 8 months prior to that, so I am confident when I say at that point I really was playing well and right 'in the zone'.

Since then (having taken a few months off to enjoy myself) things have been tough. I play mostly 10/20 or 15/30 limit and 2/4 or 3/6 NL. My tracker stats look fine, I have no problem identifying weak players and I continue to think about my game and study books. But I seem to keep screwing up and undoing weeks of good work. My number one problem is this: after that big score, grinding out $20/40/60 per hour just doesn't mean very much. Here are some more specific things which hopefully some people will relate to:

- feeling results orientated about

a) the hand (the bluff didn't work so I made a mistake trying it, etc.)
b) the session (sitting down feeling 'in a rush' to make money)
c) the week/month (sim. to above, 'I have to quickly make back that money that I'm down')

- getting frustrated by bad players (not the bad beats, it's more - )

a) being unable to read them
b) them not 'respecting' what I am 'obviously' telling them with my bets
c) licking my lips and wanting their money 'NOW, it's MINE, you're BAD, I'm GOOD'

- getting distracted when not involved in a hand

- fighting too hard for shorthanded pots
most specifically, in NL, calling too often on the river and firing the third bullet too often on the river

- bluffing the unbluffable

- going with skimpy reads when fairly new to a table

I'm not looking for lifestyle advice. I know that the things like exercise and meditation that I have been trying to introduce but haven't yet become routine will help a lot in keeping my concentration and emotional balance on track. But I could sure do with any anecdotes you guys could share on how you conquered your own demons on the road to (more) success.

[5thStreetHog]

I think that the results orientated syndrome is something that every poker player that is trying to become great constantly fights.If avoiding this is natural to someone,i feel that they are the exception.The human brain just isnt built that way.As for secrets to recondition your brain for poker,i havent found any magical solutions.I can say that,although i have a long way to go,i have improved tremendously in this area.The way i have done this is just to grind thousands of thousands of hands,fighting it constantly,most of the time losing the battle.Slowly ive gotten better,but its still a challenge every time i play.I know that probably doesnt help you much lol,but thats the best i could do.Peace!!!

[PokerBooksBurner]

After I burn all the books I became a Poker Champion

afk

[Djeorge]

^Pretty weak gimmick

[Dov]

I have been playing seriously now for much longer than you, and have not found my results to be what I had hoped. This turned out to be a good thing, though, because I have become a good enough player now that I can actually know the difference between a good play and a bad one regardless of who made it, myself included.

Now that you know that the problem is you, you need to also realize that although you may be good, you still are not one of the poker gods. You are still subject to the random fluctuations of the game, and in fact, they will be largely incomprehensible to you for a longer time than you might expect.

Since the results are all an illusion anyway, the way to beat this problem of ours (I suffer from this too.) is as follows:

1. Don't play meaningless stakes just to grind out money.

2. Don't play unless you feel like playing.

This one is important. I can't count the number of times that I got burned by telling myself that I need to play b/c I need the money. If you don't feel like playing, then don't. If your b/r isn't big enough to handle the days that you don't/can't play, then it isn't big enough and you should find a way to pad it accordingly.

3. Forget about the money.

Your job as a poker god is to distribute cards evenly but randomly. Your job as the best poker player at the table is to win the most and lose the least with the cards that the poker gods give you.

Concentrate on improving your reads - each and every hand. If you don't know what your opponent's cards are by the end, ask yourself why not and fix it.

IF YOU GET BORED, QUIT.
IF YOU GET RESULTS ORIENTED, QUIT.
IF YOU TAKE A BAD BEAT AND FEEL THE SLIGHTEST BIT ANGRY, SIT OUT. IF YOU CAN'T RECOVER YOUR EQUANIMITY AFTER 1 ORBIT, QUIT.
(Sorry about the caps but this stuff needs to be emphasized.)

4. If you find yourself thinking about quitting a good game for no apparent reason other than locking up a win, then acknowledge that you have found a leak and quit after the 3rd occurrence. Then use that feeling as the source of your next meditation exercise and try to uncover how and why you felt the way you did. (It is always fear based, but the actual source of the fear is sometimes hard to uncover.)

I hope this helps you or someone else, and I would like to hear other ideas and criticisms of my own ideas as well.

This is easily the biggest leak in my game today. I can't even count the bets that this costs me. I feel that plugging this leak is the key to fully developing as a player because my full poker knowledge will be accessible and fluid throughout my sessions.

I hope this turns into a decent thread.

By the way, if you don't get a lot of responses here, you might want to try the psych forum.

GL All

Dov

[CoronalDischarge]

Thanks a lot for the response Dov.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't play meaningless stakes just to grind out money.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting consideration. Part of the unusualness of my situation is that I kind of gave myself a starting bankroll of 10k, which is fine for the limits I mentioned above. Would I play better and more focused if I increased that bankroll and started playing more like 30/60 limit and 5/10 NL? My gut answer is yes, but ironically I wanted to get disciplined by 'doing my apprenticeship' through the levels in the normal way. Tough one, I don't know.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Don't play unless you feel like playing.


[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree, though I think I might have actually taken it too far. Looking back I seem to have played far more 2 hour sessions than longer ones. Then if it goes badly I get despondent, whereas after having a good session I come back the next time expecting to do great and can get frustrated. I think often you come out of a longer session with a better understanding of the swings. Any ideas on the best strategy if you're not right 'on it'? Play limit rather than NL? Stick to one table? Mulitable with the strict intent to stick to abc?

[ QUOTE ]
IF YOU TAKE A BAD BEAT AND FEEL THE SLIGHTEST BIT ANGRY, SIT OUT.

[/ QUOTE ]
So true. This has to be the daddy of bankroll-busters, when you have four tables open, you take a beat or make a mistake at one, you tell yourself you're cool, you're professional, then boom, stacked all of over the place. Wish I could program my computer to instantly crash...

[ QUOTE ]
you might want to try the psych forum

[/ QUOTE ]
Good idea, I hadn't noticed it. Perhaps an adminstrator could shift the thread if it would be more appropriate?

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting consideration. Part of the unusualness of my situation is that I kind of gave myself a starting bankroll of 10k, which is fine for the limits I mentioned above. Would I play better and more focused if I increased that bankroll and started playing more like 30/60 limit and 5/10 NL? My gut answer is yes, but ironically I wanted to get disciplined by 'doing my apprenticeship' through the levels in the normal way. Tough one, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need an apprenticeship?

If you really feel you need one, then try this:

Take 300BB for a limit like 10-20 limit.

4 table the full ring game until you make 30 bets for the next limit. (15-30 or 20-40)

close one of your 10-20 tables and start the new limit with the 30 bets.

play the new limit until you have either lost the 30 bets, or now have 400 bets for your current limit (10-20)

if you have 400 bets, go back to 4 tabling the 10-20 and do it again and again until you have 300BB (or whatever BR size you are comfortable with) for the next limit up.

Doing it this way, you will gain experience at each limit as you move up and will not have any psych shock along the way. You will also be able to apply new lessons learned at the higher limit to your current limit.

If you are a 2BB/100 winner, then you will average around 3000 hands per limit until you take another shot.

If you move up and run bad, drop back to the current limit whenever your roll reaches 400BB for the previous limit.

Be careful that you do not get results oriented and do not view sliding back down the ladder as a failure. Look for the reasons why you slid back and be honest about them. You will uncover many leaks along the way.

[ QUOTE ]
Looking back I seem to have played far more 2 hour sessions than longer ones. Then if it goes badly I get despondent, whereas after having a good session I come back the next time expecting to do great and can get frustrated. I think often you come out of a longer session with a better understanding of the swings. Any ideas on the best strategy if you're not right 'on it'?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was talking about before. You still have an incomplete understanding of the nature of the game and are afraid of losing. You need to learn what losing really is. It is not related to collecting the pot, and it is not related to your ego.

All that matters is the current decision. If you are making too many of your decisions on autopilot, and they are wrong, then you need to play fewer tables and think things out more thoroughly.

[ QUOTE ]
This has to be the daddy of bankroll-busters, when you have four tables open, you take a beat or make a mistake at one, you tell yourself you're cool, you're professional, then boom, stacked all of over the place.

[/ QUOTE ]

When multitabling, the hands come really quickly. Sit out from all of your tables and quit them all if you have to.

BTW, if you find yourself feeling that you 'deserved to win' a hand, then you have found a huge leak that will forever prevent you from excellence at this game.

Since you seem to basically know what's wrong, all that's left now is to fix it. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Easier said than done.

Best of luck to you.

Dov

PS

You may benefit from some of Gigabet's posts. Search the archives for them. I'm sorry that I'm too lazy to find and link them here, maybe someone else has a link in their favorites.

[5thStreetHog]

"IF YOU GET BORED, QUIT.
IF YOU GET RESULTS ORIENTED, QUIT.
IF YOU TAKE A BAD BEAT AND FEEL THE SLIGHTEST BIT ANGRY, SIT OUT. IF YOU CAN'T RECOVER YOUR EQUANIMITY AFTER 1 ORBIT, QUIT"

Honestly,most people would never play at all if strictly following these rules.Everyone will encounter these situations,you must learn to overcome them and not let them effect your play.I agree that in extreme situations it is good advice,but quitting everytime you feel the "slightest bit angry" will not help you change the mindset that is causing this problem.Same thing with being bored,who isnt going to get a little bored at one time or another playing 3000 hands a day as some here do? You need to learn to deal with it.You can be a little bit bored and still make good decisions.Having said all that,i obviously understand what your saying and agree for the most part.

[Dov]

I agree with you, but in my case taking baby steps helped me tremendously.

The way to deal with it is to play your A game all the time.

The problem that OP is experiencing is huge dents to the BR caused by preventable situations. IMHO, recognizing those situations and handling them appropriately is just as important as playing well.

Stamina increases as you become more emotionally resillient and gain a better understanding of the game. The onset of anger is almost always due to a leak based on a misunderstanding of the game or not playing your A game.

It should be a red flag that does not go unnoticed.

[dogmeat]

Congratulations on your $100K win.

Now:

Grow up.


If you gave yourself a $10k bankroll to play to, then play to it. In other words, be a professional player who needs to play their "A" game at a limit that the $10K provides and enjoy yourself.

If you can't do this because the money "doesn't mean much" then you are in trouble. Either learn to do it, or move up and hope your emotional state becomes as strong as your playing ability. If you have overestimated your playing ability, you will soon be able to go back to the $22 SNG's.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]