Ethics or Rules Question

[Bill in FL]

I was playing a $5.50/18 player NLHE sng at pokerstars. There were 6 players left, I had folded my hand. The short stack went all-in, both big stacks called. Big stack A wanted to check the pot down, big stack B wanted to fight for the pot. Player A ended up folding and the all-in was eliminated. After the hand an upset player A typed in the chat box "DO NOT BET WHEN WE ARE ELIMINATING PEOPLE". I know this is good strategy but is it legal and/or ethical to talk about it during the game?

Thanks
Bill

[jonny quest]

In my opinion, it is simply bad form to discuss a hand with other players while cards are being held and betting decisions are being made.

Some cardrooms may consider it collusion or even a violation.

Implied cooperation among big stacks trying to eliminate short stacks at the end of a tournament should be implied and not expressed. If a player does not voluntarily check down a pot in such situations, chances are he is either unfamiliar with the strategy or has chosen to not follow this strategy--in either case nothing another player says will likely matter anyway.

As a note, not all tournament players consider this strategy optimum. I believe Sklansky (in his tournament book) does not recommend making such moves. (hope I am not misquoting him)

In any event, player A's behavior was certainly impolite and crude. In my opinion, what he did was unethical. It is also possible it was in violation of specific conduct policies established by the site.

[Tony_P]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing a $5.50/18 player NLHE sng at pokerstars. There were 6 players left, I had folded my hand. The short stack went all-in, both big stacks called. Big stack A wanted to check the pot down, big stack B wanted to fight for the pot. Player A ended up folding and the all-in was eliminated. After the hand an upset player A typed in the chat box "DO NOT BET WHEN WE ARE ELIMINATING PEOPLE". I know this is good strategy but is it legal and/or ethical to talk about it during the game?

Thanks
Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

If a player suggested checking the hand down while the hand was in play, it is collusion. If you report the player to the poker site, they will send him a warning. If someone is reported multiple times, some sites will revoke or suspend his chat privledges.

Bitching at the other player for betting after the hand is bad form, but not against any rules.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

"DO NOT BET WHEN WE ARE ELIMINATING PEOPLE". I know this is good strategy

This is a myth. Checking it down to eliminate someone is only good strategy when you can't be sure you have the all-in player beat. If you're relatively confident you have the best hand on the flop, the best strategy for *you* is to bet and get the other active player to fold. Besides, if I'm the big stack near the bubble, I prefer the small stack not bust out right away.

[SheridanCat]

Checking it down when a player is all-in is "implicit collusion" and is talked about a great deal in the tournament literature. But the thing is, it's implicit. Talking about colluding - even between hands - is an ethical infraction. If your opponents don't know about the tactic, it's not correct to educate both because it's unethical and because you're teaching them something that you'd really prefer they not know.

Also, Kurn makes good points about this tactic.

Had I been the all-in player, I would have reported it. Support would likely just warn the offender, but that's worthwhile, I think.

Regards,

T

[Bill in FL]

I asked support at Pokerstars the same question. their response was:

Hello William,

It is a rules violation to discuss it and if the player has the best
possible hand and checks in last position that is generally considered
soft play and is not allowed. For more information please visit:

http://www.pokerstars.com/tournamentsrules.html

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Regards,

Patrick K.
PokerStars Support Team


Bill

[Bill in FL]

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, if I'm the big stack near the bubble, I prefer the small stack not bust out right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand betting to win the pot if I think I have the best hand. I do not understand wanting to keep the small stack around. Could you please explain?

Thanks Bill

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Besides, if I'm the big stack near the bubble, I prefer the small stack not bust out right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand betting to win the pot if I think I have the best hand. I do not understand wanting to keep the small stack around. Could you please explain?

Thanks Bill

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, the idea is to keep the medium sized stacks playing bubble-scared for a couple of orbits to build up your stack. This only works when you have a bigger stack than those in the middle or they're just playing way too tight on the bubble.