A 10-20 hand I played.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Warning: This post is going to be taylored in the Roy Cooke/Tommy Angelo format where im basically going to talk about a hand and explain my thought processes.

This hand came from a live 10-20 game but im posting it here becuz a very commmon short handed scenario developed.

I was in the SB and everyone folded to the BTN who open limped and I look down and see Ah7h, a decent strong hand for this situation. Now the next question is, what is the best line? Should I raise or should I call? Well if you already know the answer to that question at this point, I would be the first to tell you that you are not playing this situation correctly becuz I have not given you enough information yet in order to make a wise decision.

Some questions that need to be answered here is how tight/loose is the BB?, and to a lesser extent how well does he play postflop? Also, how well does the BTN play postflop? Is he tenacious? Is he tricky/deceptive? Is he aggressive? For example if he flops something like a gutshot will he raise my bet? Is he capable of raising with nothing? Will he make a lot of pressure plays? How well the BTN plays postflop is much more important than how well the BB plays becuz I am going to see a flop vs the BTN 100% of the time whereas there is a decent chance the BB will fold if I decide raising is best. The more deceptive/aggressive the BTN plays postflop the less likely I will be able to realize my full equity share. Put another way, having the best hand preflop is not enough reason to raise if we're not that far ahead and our opponent plays in such a manner that will make our life very diffult should we miss the flop. Against a BTN who plays in this manner I would just call preflop and try to hit something and go into trap mode, and I will also try to steal my fair share of ragged flops since the BTN will be less likely to play back in a nonconfrontational small pot situation.

Also the looser the BB is the less likely I will raise since playing this type of hand OOP to 2 opponents can be very difficult since a hand like A7s will often miss the flop very badly. It will once again be very difficult to win my fair share in this situation, especially if one of my opponents play well. Now I will give you my actual reads on my opponents.

The BTN is a tight/passive player who plays very predictably postflop. He's one of those nice guys that will never make a move without the goods becuz he doesnt want to upset anyone. This type of player is very common at the 10-20 level in live play. Theyre there to have fun, they want to make a little money and they dont want anyone to dislike them. The fact that he limped on the BTN, and didnt raise the blinds like he shouldve is another indication that hes just trying to be a nice guy cuz he knows that raising is the correct play, and he surely would raise if he had a premium hand, and he would surely fold with a garbage hand to let us chop, but with a hand in the middle he'll just call cuz he doesnt want to be known as a "Stealer".

The BB is my best friend and roommate. He has been playing limit holdem for 7 years and he taught me how to play 3 years ago. He's a very good player, and the only reason I have surpassed him in skill level is becuz I have an obsessive compulsive personality, not becuz I am more intelligent than him. So needless to say he's a tight player whos trying to play well.

So with a tight BB and a BTN who doesnt have a premium holding, and who plays very predictably postflop and will always let me win if I have the best hand and will only raise me when he overtakes my holding, I think it is very clear that raising is the best play.

So I raised it up with my Ah7h, my bestfriend called in the BB and the BTN called.

The flop came out Ad Ks Kc. This is a good flop for me, but not a very good one becuz although I am likely to have the best hand, there are basically no second best hands that will give me any action except a worse Ace that I'll likely end up chopping with anyways. Q77 wouldve been a great flop cuz now Qx is going to pay off all the way and if someone has a 7x type of hand I stand to make lots of money. Ok, back to the hand.

I bet the AKKr flop and was perfectly content to win the pot right there. I thought that was the most likely event. To my surprise, my bestfriend raised and the Tight/Passive player coldcalled. Now the action was back on me. What should I do? I figured my friend had Ax or Kx, and the tight passive player has Ax or Kx. With an ace on the flop and an ace in my hand what are the chances that all the aces are out in this 3way pot!!?? I thought it was very likely that one of these guys had Kx, and I thought the BTN was the player most likely to have it since he may be more apt to raise on the BTN preflop with more Ax hands than Kx hands plus he might be good enough to correctly fold a hand like A4 to that flop raise. So realizing that Kx was almost certain to be out I was now getting 11-1 to try to spike an ace on the turn. Since I knew one of these guys had to have Ax, that meant I only had 1 out to a chop, so I had .5 pure outs on the flop so I couldnt even make a loose call for one more small bet to see the turn cuz it really would be burning money. So, after figuring all this out, I quickly folded my hand.

Holdem is a funny game like that. In a split second I went from having the nuts to having to fold becuz of some very reliable new information. I am certain that nobody else at the table including my bestfriend can make my flop fold becuz they cant analyze information that quickly becuz they dont talk about hands away from the table like we all do at 2+2. The key to making quick accurate decisons at the table is constantly analyzing hands away from the table. Therefore we can know what to do before the event ever happens. This is why a site like 2+2 is so valuable.

Now back to the hand. After I folded, the turn was another King making the board AKKK. My friend bet, and the tight passive player called. The river was a duece. My friend bet and the tight passive player raised, and my friend folded. The tight passive player showed KJo, and my friend should A7o.

Heres a bonus question to those people who actually read this whole thing: Given that we now know my friend's holding, A7o. How many streets did he play right? Did he go 4/4 and play all streets well? 3/4? 2/4? 1/4? 0/4? When answering this question assume no history/metagame implications. And if possible explain why my friend made the right/wrong play on any given street. I will give what I think is the correct answer in approx 5 hours.

PS: To my other bestfriend Thehip41, you are not allowed in this thread since we talked about this hand yesterday.

[MacGuyV]

Even though the pot is 3way it seems like it should be a pretty standard wa/wb call for your friend on the flop.
The turn just sucks for him, no getting around it: any other card I think he should check, but assuming the case K is a little Mubs even if his range is limited. Also betting will usually save him $ when he's behind as opposed to check/calling down since I'd expect the uncreative BT to raise the turn with nuts.

[sharpie]

Nice post. I think your friend should've called the flop with a non vulnerable hand in a small pot that's either way ahead or way behind. On the turn the best he can hope for is a split, and the BTN might raise with a chopping hand just because he has a full house, so I don't see a point to the turn or river bets.

[Carmine]

The fact that you folded easily, shows that BB flop raise was bad. It allows every worse hand to get out without question. Once he gets called by the passive btn. he doesn't bother to put him on a hand. Button does not have JQ here or a PP. Once the K falls on the turn BB should know he is splitting at best. The river bet is the most foolish what does button call the turn with. All it does is allow btn. to bluff-raise an ace alowing him to stael 50% of the pot or split at worst. Button knows BB did not raise the flop with a K.

After the flop call BB should have C/called the big streets.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though the pot is 3way it seems like it should be a pretty standard wa/wb call for your friend on the flop.
The turn just sucks for him, no getting around it: any other card I think he should check, but assuming the case K is a little Mubs even if his range is limited. Also betting will usually save him $ when he's behind as opposed to check/calling down since I'd expect the uncreative BT to raise the turn with nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

McGahee, sharpie, and carmine, whats your final answer out of the choices 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 1/4 and 0/4?

[Scary_Tiger]

SO MANY WORDS PLZ USE CONVERTER

[Carmine]

I say 0/4 as he should have folded PF

[sharpie]

I guess he played the turn fine if the guy only raises with the nuts, for the sole purpose of saving a bet if behind. I would say 2/4 if that's the case. I don't see a point to the river bet, though.

[Scary_Tiger]

You played your hand fine.

For your friend, preflop is close, but the odds are too good to pass up. So 1/1 so far.

Flop raise is ugly. 1/2.

Turn bet is good. You can fold when this nit raises. 2/3.

River bet is good also. People come up with reasons to call river. Hard to put TPP on a King here. River fold is easy, it's now very easy to put TPP on a King. 3/4.

For TPP, he should have raised preflop, with his image, he should coldcall the flop, he should raise the turn under the assumption his image isn't so nitty you'll fold a freaking Ace. And obvious a river raise as played. So 2/4 for him.

[Guruman]

ILP, nice to see you posting a hand. I love the style myself. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think you played the hand perfectly, and I only hope that I'd make the same fold in the same situation with the same reads.

re:your best friend -
I dont mind his preflop call given the reads available. I don't think he can fold because of how wide button's limping range and your raising range will be. he also clearly can't raise it up for deception or value.

on the flop i'm positive that you'd advocate a call from him for the same reasons you had to fold, and I'd tend to agree. I think it's perfectly legit to play wa/wb vs you with the fish padding the pot. He's essentially got position on the one dangerous player in the hand and he doesn't want to push the fish off of a worse hand like a pp. Also, if he calls here I don't think you'll bet the turn without an A or K since everyone's pre-announced their calls. This makes his moves exceedingly easy to play depending on whether or not button sticks around.

On the turn I'm torn between whether or not he should bet into the passive player. I suppose the answer depends entirely on button's mindset and calldown range. Will he call all the way down with his pp and 'underboat'? will he see the river with any two hoping to boat up? If he will then I like the bet. If not then I don't.

on the river he clearly had to fold to the raise. My thoughts about a bet there are very similar to the one on the turn. If button will showdown any pocket pair and will refuse to raise a2-abig then I like the bet for value. if not then there's no value in it and he should just check and hope button checks behind.