sidepot question

levAA · #1 08-16-2007, 04:16 PM

In these hands, where we have a main pot and no sidepot, while one opponent is all-in i am used to check the hand down, even if i have top pair, cause the risk-reward ratio is bad.

In this hand i made my set on the turn and started to built a sidepot.

I'm not sure if this is better compared to checking the hand down.

And if building as sidepot makes sense, is it better to start building it slowly with a small bet, or bet an amount that applies to the main pot - say half potsize of the main pot?

in this hand actually i was very lucky cause villain had a straight on the turn but i was able to make my boat on the river.

Edit: I know it would have been better to push preflop after the raise, but forget about that.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t6932)
UTG (t8160)
UTG+1 (t2800)
Hero (t3290)
MP2 (t3055)
MP3 (t3630)
CO (t495)
Button (t4100)
SB (t1985)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t300, 1 fold, MP3 calls t300, CO raises to t495, 3 folds, Hero calls t195, MP3 calls t195.

Flop: (t1585) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t1585) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t300, MP3 raises to t900, Hero raises to t2795, MP3 calls t1895.

River: (t7175) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: t7175

BagOfCoins · #2 08-16-2007, 04:43 PM

Checking the hand down when there is no sidepot is rarely a good idea. Eventhough you cannot make the allin player fold, you still need to protect your hand.

For example, in this case you have a set on the turn and you should be worried that MP3 may have two clubs. You need to bet a significant fraction of the main pot's size to prevent him from drawing for his flush.

Short answer: bet an amount that is reasonable relative to the main pot

BigAlK · #3 08-16-2007, 04:52 PM

Different players play this kind of situation (a dry sidepot) differently. I think the way you played it is fine up to your re-raise on the turn.

Checking the flop is fine because you have no reason to expect your hand is best. If MP3 had hit top pair or better you'd expect him to bet on the flop. This is because he may or may not have the all-in player beat, but he would have reason to believe that he had you beat and would want to bet to protect his hand from the possibility of you improving on subsequent streets.

You betting out on the turn is also okay. You have reason to believe your hand is best or at least better than MP3. You're betting to protect it or at least charge him to draw. I think your bet size should be designed to charge him for whatever draw he might possibly have. Since hitting the draw he stands to win the entire pot you need to take that into consideration. I think your turn bet should have been a little bigger.

When he re-raises you have to consider what he might have that he'd play that way. There are a couple 2 pair possibilities (KT hoping you'd hit something and bet or a just made 2 pair with K9 or T9) are the most likely. He could have also made a set of 5s. I think the KT or the set is the most likely of these since he wouldn't have been as concerned in letting you see a free turn card. There is also the possibility that he just made the straight with QJ. When he raises I'd be leaning toward believing my hand was still good, but would most likely call and re-evaluate on the river.

When the king comes on the river I most likely check/call or make a blocking/thin value bet. Some of he 2 pair hands I was afraid of just caught up. I plan to go to showdown, but want to get their as cheaply as possible. As it turns out the king is a scare for both of us and he likely check through or calls a small bet.

Once betting starts into the sidepot I think these situations largely play out the same as a headsup pot (although the possibility that you're only playing for the sidepot has to be factored in when computing odds). Another consideration is it is a given that at least one of you is going to showdown. This makes a bluff or even a semi-bluff much less likely.

earck · #4 08-16-2007, 05:33 PM

The biggest reason to check down when another player is all in is to move up in the money. Clearly at this stage where the blidns are at 50-100 you are not in the money and there is very little or no value in seeing this player knocked out.

I like the way you played it here, you likely have the best hand on the turn and you need to value bet, which you did and when he comes over the top you need to figure out his range.

KK - doubtful
QJ - Maybe, but the odds are so slim that i think u can ignore it and dismiss it as a cooler if he does have it.
TT - pretty unlikely as well

I think u are ahead here an overwhelming amount of times and I like the reraise.

I am assuming you lost the pot since you posted it, but don't get results oriented, you made the correct play IMHO.

levAA · #5 08-16-2007, 05:38 PM

thx for your analysis - this is very helpfull - i'm not very firm with this sidepot play yet.

BigAIK - i thought about just calling the turn reraise, but as i would have been pot committed anyway i choose to push

earck - no as written in the OP i was lucky to catch that kind on the river, cause villain had a straight on the turn

black666 · #6 08-16-2007, 05:38 PM

As you mentioned yourself, you should have shoved PF.
As played, I would bet bigger on the turn (1k). You have a set an the all-in player is irrelevant right now - all that matters is getting the most out of MP3 and protecting your hand against draws.

This is no satellite where you just want to eliminate the player. You want the chips and the most +EV spots you can get. That's why a shove PF would have been the right play. Your hand has a much better chance of winning against one opponent than against 2 - and with dead money in the pot, you don't mind being in a flip against CO.