Live 10-20 hand.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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Given your average 10-20 live game, of course it's a bet, but it's silly to think it's not close.

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Well then I guess I must be a silly person. I dont think its close at all. If I checked a FD in this spot I would probably rack up my chips, go home, and never play poker again.

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Can you elucidate your reasons for betting, in order of importance?

From your previous post, I gather that the chance of winning UI on the turn is a major one. I'd assume pure value is another (ie, you do not want this getting checked thru). But anyway I don't think that check is a critical mistake either. You know I repsect your opinion, so I'd like to get a clearer understanding of your thoughts.

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The thing is Gaming Mouse, even against 5 opponents a K72 board is probably the best possible semi-bluffing flop this game has to offer and this is especially true after 4 opponents have already checked the flop. Even in a loose game, a semi-bluff bet has a real chance of winning this pot right on the flop or on the turn, and if Im wrong and 3 people call this flop bet out of no where, I still make money and I'll still likely be able to get my freecard on the turn. Once in a while the worst case scenario will happen where I bet here and the BTN has a real hand and raises the flop, thus isolating me against the best hand, but big freakin deal.

The main point I want to get across is that betting this particular board in our specific position is a high reward/very low risk proposition. No rational person would ever pass this opportunity up. So at the risk of tedium I will say one more time, I dont think the flop play is close at all. Im convinced betting is clearly better than checking and honestly, no one can change my mind on this.

[gaming_mouse]

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The thing is Gaming Mouse, even against 5 opponents a K72 board is probably the best possible semi-bluffing flop this game has to offer and this is especially true after 4 opponents have already checked the flop. Even in a loose game, a semi-bluff bet has a real chance of winning this pot right on the flop or on the turn, and if Im wrong and 3 people call this flop bet out of no where, I still make money and I'll still likely be able to get my freecard on the turn. Once in a while the worst case scenario will happen where I bet here and the BTN has a real hand and raises the flop, thus isolating me against the best hand, but big freakin deal.

The main point I want to get across is that betting this particular board in our specific position is a high reward/very low risk proposition. No rational person would ever pass this opportunity up. So at the risk of tedium I will say one more time, I dont think the flop play is close at all. Im convinced betting is clearly better than checking and honestly, no one can change my mind on this.

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Thanks, and good explanation.

I think you are probably right and I have no desire to change your mind. I would point out, though, that there are clearly correct plays that everyone knows are clearly correct, and clearly correct plays that are not obviously clearly correct, even to typically good players. I think this falls into the latter category.... Pretty sure I would have bet here, fwiw, but I would never have thought that a check was a really bad play unless I'd read your post.

[Bill C]

To me the crux of the hand is what hero can expect from KQo. Big unsuited hands like this one play best against few, rather than many players, and letting the blinds in, essentially for free seems like a trip to suck-out city to me. The hand you hope to make is TPGK and have it hold up. Two pair would be nice but not very likely. (Not much chance of str8 or flush).

Preflop in LP, in an unraised pot with only a moderate number of limpers like this, I am going to raise it, hope to KO the blinds and set up folds from hands with potential draws on the flop. Not only that, but checking here under-represents your hand and surrenders possible control.

When the flop contains a King and 2 non-coordinated clubs, assuming it is checked to hero, I would bet again. Winning right there would be just fine. I doubt either a 7X or A2 would call unless the latter was A2s, a draw to the nut flush. And if that were the case, it would be an awful mistake for him not to raise his Ace.

I am a little surprised that CO checked the flop since I would assume he was in a 4-handed pot at that moment, with the two fish limping. He'd be looking at ~35% equity while putting in only 25% of the money, assuming he was called all around.

What would our plan have been if he had bet out on the flop? Mine would be to raise, charging his possible draw to a flush, and hoping to shuck the two limpers with a double bet. If he re-raised I'd call and check down if neither an Ace or club came.

Given that scenario, if he checked the turn, I'd bet. I think it's pretty unlikely that he has a 2. Subsequently we learn that he had a FD. He'd call. No way he folds.

I think I would have been giving the FD more credence than many of the discussants at this point (hard to say when we already know the answer!), so if a non-Ace, non-club fell on the river and he checked, I'd bet, thinking my hand was almost certainly best. I suppose a case could be made for checking the river, but since he seems to have missed his draw, I doubt he'd bluff.

Just my $.02 worth...

bc

[Maliant]

You won't get a free turn card just based on a flop bet.

[Bill C]

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You won't get a free turn card just based on a flop bet.

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Here's what I said:
"Given that scenario, if he checked the turn, I'd bet. I think it's pretty unlikely that he has a 2. Subsequently we learn that he had a FD. He'd call. No way he folds."

Where does this say anything about a free card? I don't want or need a free card. I want to keep pressure on this guy and make HIM make a hand.

bc

[Maliant]

Was referring to Ilovepoker in regard to betting a flush draw here while I agree w/ some other points I don't think KQ is checking the turn just b/c last to act bet, most likely u are getting c/r on flop and betting turn.