JJ against LAGtard

snikeris · #1 04-30-2007, 04:14 AM

MP1 was 44/24/2.39 after 213 hands. UTG is a pretty straightforward player, 22/17/3 after 9346 hands.

PF: MP1's 3-bet could mean a lot of things, so I'm going to play this. The cap was so no one else considers getting in this pot with us. I'd say this is debatable between a call and a cap.

Flop: Ok, this is pretty much the flop I wanted to see. Weird action, but pretty standard I think.

Turn: Pretty sure the raise here is ok too. I still have an overpair, the board is still uncoordinated, and the raiser is a LAG.

River: After the turn 3-bet by MP1, I figure I'm behind here to all but TT, so the river card is pretty much the worst thing that could have come. Have to call anyway though given huge pot and overpair.

Did I play this correctly?

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25./$0.5
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, 5 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (13.4SB, 3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.7BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (18.7BB, 2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 20.7BB

jstill · #2 04-30-2007, 04:33 AM

yikes, u didnt play this right.

I havent cold capped JJ ever in fr not in the blinds or in an obvious steal/ resteal situation ie loose HJ raises, CO 3bets and has a range of 55+ ATo A9s+ KQo KJs+ ect so I cold cap JJ otb. This is a fold preflop in my book, not sure what poker stove says? I cold cap QQ here and AKs, Id sometimes call sometimes cap AKo here.

the flop decision is tough/close, but u definitely shouldnt raise the turn, once u did I think u should just ditch, ur not gonna win even close to 10% of the time u need to to calldown profitably. As for the flop, Im pretty scared when UTG donks into the pf3bettor and cold capper and there arent many worse hands UTG+1 is likely to have that hed raise here. 9x doesnt fit much into most's 3betting range vs a UTG raiser at fr, so he could have PPs below hes raising for protection, but that pretty much goes out the window after his cap. People also rarely would raise AK AQ KQ ect here in a capped pot, so we're not doing very well against either players ranges. Its tough I guess I 3bet cuz I cant fold yet esp since the flop raiser is the more aggro but I dont like it much while Im doing it, same goes with QQ here, KK i feel better but still probably wouldnt raise the turn here w/o a really spewy postflop read on MP. even then I dont mind just calling down to have UTG pad the pot.

snikeris · #3 04-30-2007, 04:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yikes, u didnt play this right.

I havent cold capped JJ ever in fr not in the blinds or in an obvious steal/ resteal situation ie loose HJ raises, CO 3bets and has a range of 55+ ATo A9s+ KQo KJs+ ect so I cold cap JJ otb. This is a fold preflop in my book, not sure what poker stove says? I cold cap QQ here and AKs, Id sometimes call sometimes cap AKo here.

the flop decision is tough/close, but u definitely shouldnt raise the turn, once u did I think u should just ditch, ur not gonna win even close to 10% of the time u need to to calldown profitably. As for the flop, Im pretty scared when UTG donks into the pf3bettor and cold capper and there arent many worse hands UTG+1 is likely to have that hed raise here. 9x doesnt fit much into most's 3betting range vs a UTG raiser at fr, so he could have PPs below hes raising for protection, but that pretty much goes out the window after his cap. People also rarely would raise AK AQ KQ ect here in a capped pot, so we're not doing very well against either players ranges. Its tough I guess I 3bet cuz I cant fold yet esp since the flop raiser is the more aggro but I dont like it much while Im doing it, same goes with QQ here, KK i feel better but still probably wouldnt raise the turn here w/o a really spewy postflop read on MP. even then I dont mind just calling down to have UTG pad the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what you are advocating is very weak. We have an overpair against someone who plays 44% of his hands and raises half of them. He very well could be playing T9o this way. I'm raising to get the guy with AQ, AK out here in case an A,K, or Q drops. I'm trying to protect my hand, even though I very well may be beat. Why do you want to play this vulnerable overpair so weakly?

MPB · #4 04-30-2007, 05:05 AM

There's no way in hell I would fold that preflop.
We're obv. far ahead of UTGs range and with the read that MP1 has a quite wide range for 3betting capping is absolutely perfect with me. Calling might not be terrible either, but I prefer to cap and to show some aggression on the flop again (well, maybe not really on a AKQ kinda flop).
Anyway, after this has been done in the hand it should be obvious for our opponents that have an overpair. Since MP1 still doesn't slow down and even bets out on the turn again, we should back down instead of firing again and again, that's total spew. Being a LAG doens't mean he's a total maniac.
Or do we seroisuly excpect him to cap the flop with AK unimproved?
I think we have to give him credit for probably having us beat, either with a bigger overpair or a set.
Since the pot is huge and our opponent seems to be a bit unpredictable we cannot really fold, but raising is not much better either.

Bruce D · #5 04-30-2007, 05:16 AM

I think the only thing that you are going to protect against is AQ. AK is going nowhere on the flop, especially if its suited non-diamonds.

As played, I don't like the turn raise. MP1 capped the flop and leads again. You are not going to fold him out. He is going to showdown. At this point, if you are going to go to showdown, do it as cheap as possible, because too often you are behind in this situation. The person you describe may not play well preflop, but that doesn't mean that A) they don't get cards, and B) that they play all that horribly after the flop drops.

I would give this fella credit for an overpair to the board or a flopped set of nines or perhaps A4s. You only chop to another JJ when the river falls. If your reads are that he is overagressive with air then raising only makes you pay more when you are behind, or puts you in a spot where you have to make a hard decision where often enough we make the wrong one.

I don't advocate playing slow with Jacks, but in this case you have been told that your hand is no good. If you don't believe him, just call. Trying to fold out an A, K or Q, behind you when you are drawing to 2 outs or less gets expensive quick.

jstill · #6 04-30-2007, 05:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think what you are advocating is A DEFINITE SPEW IMO.

Why do you want to play this marginal overpair so strongly?

[/ QUOTE ]

pf and flop are probably fine becuz MP is so aggro, but the turn is way too much. You never provided us with a read that this guy is a huge maniac that is capable of going off or way overplaying or bluffing in multi-way pots even after both players have showed tons of strength. When Im playing I would know this about anyone I played and have specific notes on what id seen them do, and I think its important to note that just becuz uve seen a villain play really laggy or flat out bad even postflop doesnt mean u cant always interpret their actions. Their actions in protected pots (multiway hands or hands with an all in sidepot) can be interpreted much more honestly than say when they cr the flop or turn in a HU pot, or a pot where their raise knocks out another player and could likely ellicit a fold from the bettor a decent % of the time. Here u and UTG have shown so much strength in this hand its a rare villain that will have UI overs or a hand worse than JJ here going into the turn, let alone after the turn 3bet(altho its possible sure, thats why we call down from the flop cap).

If i knew this guy was a total nutjob post flop even when he should never expect to win a hand without showdown and in multi-way pots, I wouldnt raise the turn. I actually figured the case would be made that you "have to" raise to protect ur hand against overcards that could hit UTG, but thats points pretty poor here. UTG donked out on the flop into the laggy pf3bettor and a presumably tight cold capper at full ring (ur range is pretty tight here id imagine). Sure he can donk with lots of worse hands which is why we dont fold the flop, but his hand really doesnt look like UI overs based on his flop play which leaves some better some worse PPs and u dont mind letting 2 outters come along and pad the pot for when MP has u beat ( even lags get hands remember). I think the only real advantage to raising (ignoring value vs MP which is definitely debatable and in my opinion we definitely arent ahead enough to raise the turn here HU) would be the slight possibility we could get UTG to fold QQ, but he doesnt have that and fold nearly enough where its outweighs the negatives of raising which is that our hand is not very strong after this action.

MPB · #7 04-30-2007, 05:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We have an overpair against someone who plays 44% of his hands and raises half of them. He very well could be playing T9o this way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are u serious that you think he would cap T9 on all streets even against so much resitance? It might be case that he's a total moron, but yourt read just says LAG and not ttoal retard. Just because he is very aggro preflop and maybe also postflop most of the time doesnt mean that he's a maniac spewing with trash hands even if it's absolutely clear that his hand can't be good.

marchron · #8 04-30-2007, 10:06 AM

The turn raise is better since it's still multiway than it would be HU, because it got UTG to dump AK/AQ. But it's still pretty bad because we're not really buying any outs; we're probably still losing to MP1's QQ+ or 99.

You still gotta call the river. MP1 has something dumb 5-ish% of the time.

Point Blank · #9 04-30-2007, 01:30 PM

lol at
[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a pretty straightforward player, 22/17/3 after 9346 hands

[/ QUOTE ]
this guy is in no way 'straightforward' ... you should pretty much watch yourself
straightforward stats would be like 17/9/1.9

also ... wouldn't mind a 3betting range for the LAG

i can see cold capping JJ if UTG will fold (but this is unlikely) ...
capping when you are probably about even money against two guys who are really aggressive is probably a bad idea (it pretty much gives away your hand and you don't get any extra info from UTG)
it would be much better to coldcall the 3bet and raise MP's flop bet (board depending)

as played ...
onthe flop - again I would only 3bet if I thought it would fold UTG
my play would be to cold call and raise the turn (depending)

on your turn
I don't think I'm raising now either (UTG doesn't have you beat, and has 2 outs or 6) the raise is pretty marginal and you are only folding a worse hand from UTG and opening yourself up to a 3bet by MP

on the river ... since you pretty much created a giant pot - you have to call (it would be pretty retarded not to)