PF Question

[MPB]

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So, just calling down is clearly leaving money at the table, imho.

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I completely agree with both your calculation and you reasoning where to raise.
In my own calculations I assumed a tight preflop raiser which means something TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+ to me. Against this range our edge with QTo on a Q23 flop is less than 4%.

[Watkins]

Frito,

Good, detailed response:

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So, just calling down is clearly leaving money at the table, imho. The only question is, where to raise, and if that raise is likely to single us out againt his monsters.

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You reply makes a lot of sense but equity is only part of the equation. You need to factor in how often you c/r and still get called down by a worse hand. Are you calling down if 3-bet?

edit:
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Yeah, like BBB says, it's to a large part feel/read dependent

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This is against an unknown but this is a good example of why reads are so important..

[lautzutao]

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Maybe pot committed wasn't the right word. I guess having a lot of pot equity would be more accurate.

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Well lets look at your pot equity then. You're calling 1 bet to win 3.5 bets(his 2 bets, your BB and the SB). So you only need about 25% equity for this to be a good decision(a little less actually). Even at the "worst" case scenario for raises here rangewise for an unknown JJ+ AKo+(JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs) you have 30% equity heads up. So this is a good call.

To understand how to play this hand properly however after the flop takes some work. Read the hands posted on this site and play a bit and you'll get the hang of it, especially using SSHE as a guide while you learn.

[00Snitch]

When something like this happens (QJ on Q-High flop)...

I like the idea of calling down. Unless you are awsome, or the board gets scary, you will probably call this down every time. If you c/r the flop and get 3-bet, you are almost certainly beat and not drawing profitably. Hands like AK/AJ,JJ-TT will not be the hands that he 3-bets. But you will still call down.

OK, the best case for these types of hands will never happen. i.e. it is never going to happen that he will he will 3-bet a flop c/r with JJ and bet it to the river and you win 3.5bb. So pretty much rule that out.

The best realistic case is that you c/r the flop, lead the turn and river and he calls down with AK/AJ,TT-JJ (maybe 99 or something like that). In this case you win 1BB on each street. = 3bb.

If you plan to c/c,c/c,b/f. At best you win 2.5bb Next best is that he checks behind the turn and calls a river bet so you get 1.5bb. Worst is he checks behind on the turn and folds to the river and you only get 0.5bb.

What does all this mean? lol, i dunno -\__o_0__/- I'm telling you anything you don't already know.

Maybe if you are good enough to know when you are beat, then you can c/r the flop, call a 3-bet and fold the turn UI. I guess c/c,c/c,b/f is the safest.

[Watkins]

If we're c/r'ing and plan on going to the river do our equity calculations need to be based on the hands that will call a c/r ?

[00Snitch]

It is very rare that any of his range fold to a c/r on this flop.

I guess a fair swathe of his range (anything that didnt connect with the flop might) that might fold to a turn bet after a flop c/r.

If he calls a river bet after all that, then you are good most times. NH.

I'm not very good at answering questions...

Watkins, I would say, if he calls a c/r on the flop, you can only slightly tighten his range. However, if he 3-bets the flop, you can reduce his range by much more.

[Aaron W.]

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This is a no-brainer call.

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What about QTs? JTs? J9s? T9s?

I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just wondering.

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I'm not quite sure if I would auto-call JTs, but I'm likely to call. T9s starts to get a little too weak to auto-call. The one gappers QTs and J9s are borderline.

[Aaron W.]

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But the times you flop this and call down to discover JJ combined with .....

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Against more aggressive opponents I've seen PP's as low as 88. Aaron, assuming a dry flop if you check/raise and are 3-bet and villain proceeds to fire again on the turn & river are you always calling this down against an unknown?

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That's where it gets tough and you've got to have a sense of how things play at whatever stakes you're playing. If I check-raise an unknown, it's because I'm trying to get myself ready to fold somewhere if he gives me future action. If I don't want to fold, I'll check-call. At "aggressive stakes" (whatever that means), I'll get to showdown. At "passive stakes", I'll check-raise for value (because a passive player may not bet no-pair on the turn).

[Shillx]

Call if you know how to play after the flop. If the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you want to check/raise then you would be better off folding PF.

[aK13]

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Call if you know how to play after the flop. If the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you want to check/raise then you would be better off folding PF.

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Same theory about flop play is extended to all those other hands -- I defend here with suited connectors down to 54s, and some connected offsuits (probably 87o). Would feel more comfortable defending with T9o over like Q6o.

Except that in most of these cases with suited connectors and connected ofssuits you should be check/raising a lot.

I'm also defensive about my blinds [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

EDIT: I also feel like it's good for me to learn how to play marginal hands well postflop, and also blind defense.