I ridiculous overbet because I dont want to get sucked out on

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
Dsch, go back and read the theory of poker. Then you'll delete this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better yet, read the new book: Professional NL Holdem. Read the section on commitment. The hand you mentioned with JTs is pretty close on the river, because you're only getting about 3:1 and your hand is probably not good 25% of the time. Yes, he made a bad call on the turn FTOP-wise, but that doesn't mean you need to make a bad call on the river vs. a guy who would almost certainly not bluff here.

Vs. a lot of loose idiots, you should just c/c in those spots.

[LucidDream]

Wow, this OP is hugely -ev. Like throwing a piece of meat into a pack of hungry wolves. I'd really move down or you are going to hate life since I'm pretty sure most of MSNL knows your FTP ID.

[SEABEAST]

another classic msnl thread

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
wow how the hell can you not understand what long-term play means

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh?

[Ship Ship McGipp]

[ QUOTE ]
another classic msnl thread

[/ QUOTE ]

[Cooper]

Pot commiting yourself (and him) by river is what you WANT to do when he is drawing to 8 outs for his flush (or say 10 outs in hand 1 for example).
Even if he has 10 outs in hand 1 he is missing his river card 80% of the time. If you bet 300 (and he always calls), 8/10 times you earn 300, 2/10 he hits his river. Even if you always pay him off for additional 300:
You will earn:
8 * 300 = 2400
and lose
2 * 600 = -1200
Which will net you 1200 over 10 tries = 120$ EV extra by betting turn.

Shoving is likely to be less EV as you will fold out all draws most of the time, pretty much EV 0 i guesstimate.

[Woolygimp]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I have no way of knowing which 2. I mean, he could call $250 with 78, or AQ, or KK, or KhTh, or Ah8h, and I'll be pot-stuck and shoving my last 300 into a 900 on basically any river praying he's got the "other" hand.

Ok, here's another hand where instead I bet a normal amount on the turn, but the resultant pot was so bloated relative to stack sizes, I felt like I was supposed to shove the river, even though it was ugly. (Maybe this was a mistake, and I'm supposed to c/f here getting over 3:1?)

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $630.90
SB: $399.40
Hero (BB): $497.20
UTG: $449.60
CO: $424.50

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $4, <font color="red">CO raises to $18</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $14, UTG calls $14

Flop: ($56) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $45</font>, Hero calls $45, UTG calls $45

Turn: ($191) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $144</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $144

River: ($479) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $290.20 and is All-In</font>, CO calls $217.50 and is All-In

Results: $914 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, Queen high) and LOST (-$424.50 NET)
CO showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, King high) and WON $911 (+$486.50 NET)

So obviously afterwards I wished I had bet bigger on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] (even though his call was mathematically incorrect with only 6 outs).

I guess what jfish said is true, I just don't see the big picture of how to make money in poker. I hate losing pots more than I like winning money etc. How can I get past this psychological barrier?

Also, I have a real fundamental problem with how to play the turn/river on hands where normal-sized bets will get me a river SPR of like one-half or one-third. I feel like if I'm pot committed, then I should be all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

River push is ok, but sometimes I c/c to induce a bluff.

[LucidDream]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but I have no way of knowing which 2. I mean, he could call $250 with 78, or AQ, or KK, or KhTh, or Ah8h, and I'll be pot-stuck and shoving my last 300 into a 900 on basically any river praying he's got the "other" hand.

Ok, here's another hand where instead I bet a normal amount on the turn, but the resultant pot was so bloated relative to stack sizes, I felt like I was supposed to shove the river, even though it was ugly. (Maybe this was a mistake, and I'm supposed to c/f here getting over 3:1?)

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $630.90
SB: $399.40
Hero (BB): $497.20
UTG: $449.60
CO: $424.50

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $4, <font color="red">CO raises to $18</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $14, UTG calls $14

Flop: ($56) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="red">CO bets $45</font>, Hero calls $45, UTG calls $45

Turn: ($191) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $144</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $144

River: ($479) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $290.20 and is All-In</font>, CO calls $217.50 and is All-In

Results: $914 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, Queen high) and LOST (-$424.50 NET)
CO showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, King high) and WON $911 (+$486.50 NET)

So obviously afterwards I wished I had bet bigger on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] (even though his call was mathematically incorrect with only 6 outs).

I guess what jfish said is true, I just don't see the big picture of how to make money in poker. I hate losing pots more than I like winning money etc. How can I get past this psychological barrier?

Also, I have a real fundamental problem with how to play the turn/river on hands where normal-sized bets will get me a river SPR of like one-half or one-third. I feel like if I'm pot committed, then I should be all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

River push is ok, but sometimes I c/c to induce a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

river push is bad IMO. hero is holding JT so there isn't any kind of flush left that can even call that push except ones that beat him.

[ddubois]

Non-flush hands, like sets, might crying call?

[john kane]

in the JsTs the check-call flop is pretty bad imo. i cant see how your getting the odds given your oop and 4 in 5 you'll probably then go on to make another poor turn call when he bets again when the spade doesnt hit.

for me this is a lead flop, lead turn making sure your not pot committing yourself if he shoves.

as played, i sometimes shove sometimes check purely dependent on the opponent. some opponents will time down and call with something crap, othertimes some opponents will go ai to try to bluff you. totally opponent dependent imo.