I still suck hand stud8. Hand #2

[Bremen]

Given my live ace kicker I thought I had enough to call half a bet on 3rd. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but thats why I posted this.

HORSE - 7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (4.88 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (4.44 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (7.44 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

River - (10.44 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (12.44 BB)

[Alchemist]

I think calling 3rd is fine; folding might be a little too weak/tight. Only problem is that it might lead to sticky spots if both you and Villains (esp Seat 7) catch good, which is what happened here.

I'd play it all the same way. Betting 5th and 6th are automatic, having caught great cards and trying to get everyone else to fold. I'm surprised they both called on 6th.

I like the value bet on the river as well. You're not getting raised here (unless he has a straight or better) and he's going to pay you off with a lot of hands, seeing how he's made it this far. Most likely he's got Jacks up.

[Andy B]

With a Deuce gone, third's a fold. Fourth is probably a fold as well. I think you did fine in betting the rest of the way, though.

[Brad1970]

Fold third every time.

[mscags]

Yeah I usually fold this on third especially with a 2 dead and in a multiway pot where it is harder to bully 2+ ppl around

[getfunky]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold third every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are getting about 8:1 on your money - you can't be that significant of an underdog especially with the two lowest cards in the deck. however these are marginal trap hands and you got trapped. They should be played cautiously even if the ducks were live- I'd throw it away vs aggressive, jamming type of opponents, but seeing 4th street can't be a bad thing against normal opponents with these odds.

[Andy B]

You're probably going to have to call at least one bet on fourth, so that 8:1 is a bit of a mirage.

[getfunky]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably going to have to call at least one bet on fourth, so that 8:1 is a bit of a mirage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do see your point but I'd like to explore this a little further. I think the BI is where good players lose more than they should. I toss razz hands heads up vs agressive aces, but with small pairs with small kickers, I'm much more tempted to play vs late position paint, because my hand is more concealed than his, he might not have a pair, and even if he does, we are heads up giving me a better chance. Do you not take into account the discount on 3rd when deciding to play from the bi?

[Andy B]

Of course I take the discount into account when deciding to call from the bring-in. If Deuces were live, I couldn't get my money in fast enough, but they're not. With the Deuce gone, it's more than 40:1 against making trips on fourth. Anything else is going to be harder to play. Obviously, catching an Ace would be good, but that would leave you out of position for the rest of the hand, and if the low hands develop strongly, you may wish you hadn't been in there.

If you catch a banana, you'll have to fold to a bet. A good chunk of the time, you're going to catch something small, giving you a three-card low against likely four-card lows. This is a reverse implied odds situation and it negates those supposed 8:1 odds on third street. This situation will come up far more often than you'll make a high hand you like. This hand is a playing loser.