Razz 1$ mtt hand 1

[Praxising]

I think I have the most trouble in the first and last hours of a trny. This hand, which I included the results for, is an example of when I don't know what the optimal play is. A few hands into one of these, it becomes obvious that some are going to play really bad starting hands. One guy played QK2 later on. In a cash game, I think you just stay tight, but in these trnys, I watch these guys go out and give away their chips to my opponents while I wait for decent hands.

I was sorely tempted to call here. I am wondering if there is some specific early, loose mtt strategy for starting hands where you know you will get multiple limpers, many of whom will play any wheel card in the door? The $10 trny plays very differently.

Tournament - Razz - Level I (10/20), Ante 2, Bring-In 3 (converter)

Seat 1: 1,500
Seat 2: 1,500
Seat 3: 1,500
Hero: 1,500
Seat 5: 1,500
Seat 6: 1,500
Seat 7: 1,500

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.30 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.15 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

6th Street - (2.15 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

River - (2.15 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls

Total pot: (4.15 BB)

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Seat 3: shows [6s Jc 3h Qh Qc 4d Ac] (Lo: J,6,4,3,A)
Seat 6: shows [Tc 6d Ah 6h As 7s 9h] (Lo: T,9,7,6,A)

[roggles]

I think you should just play tight and fold this. I think incorporating some kind of "they are loose so I'll play just sligthly less loose"-strategy will be hard. Either way, I doubt you have the best of it in this pot.

Also, if you don't know how to play during the first hour (which is pretty much regular Razz), are you sure this isn't just too low a buy-in? I know I could never bring myself to care in a $1 tournament, or a $5 for that matter..

[RustyBrooks]

This is a good point... even more so than the lowest microstakes levels, $1-$3 tournaments are populated by many many people who have never played razz. Play tight and solid and you'll do OK. It's unlikely that whatever chips you can scrape together by loosening up in the first 3 levels is going to help much in the long run.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you don't know how to play during the first hour (which is pretty much regular Razz), are you sure this isn't just too low a buy-in? I know I could never bring myself to care in a $1 tournament, or a $5 for that matter..

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it's too low for me to love it, that's why I play the $10. But, I need the practice and to develop the discipline to ALWAYS play every hand as well as I can. And besides, I don't have the bankroll on PS anymore to play the ten. The 3 isn't much better and the 5 is very late at night.

I decided to play it until I won it.

Not sure anyone has that big a roll! Except..the same ten players seem to always finish at the top. I want to know what they know.

[roggles]

Party has some kind of magical Razz tournaments. The first times I played Razz were in $15 and $20 MTTs at party. I finished in the money in the first four, and won two of them. I really didn't know how to play that well - I just played 3 cards under 7 and folded if I bricked twice. Now I can't win a MTT to save my life. Although, actually ... in august I won 3 of the MTTs at full tilt, but after that I've pretty much been busting out early in all of them. And I can't win in cash game either.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Party has some kind of magical Razz tournaments. The first times I played Razz were in $15 and $20 MTTs at party. I finished in the money in the first four, and won two of them. I really didn't know how to play that well - I just played 3 cards under 7 and folded if I bricked twice. Now I can't win a MTT to save my life. Although, actually ... in august I won 3 of the MTTs at full tilt, but after that I've pretty much been busting out early in all of them. And I can't win in cash game either.

[/ QUOTE ]
You will. Sounds a lot like me. I think the deal online is - sometimes you get a good seat. You just end up in the part of the algorithm that, for the next two hours or so, is going to give you winning Razz hands. If you were playing Stud hi, you'd be going broke. (I once was dealt rolled-up hands seven times in an hour and a half playing Razz -) So my version of online is: you have to get a good seat to have a chance, bad players lose no matter what you give them.

I take my four buy-ins to a cash table, if I lose two, I go to another table. If I lose those, I quit for the day. If I win, I never ever leave until I start losing again. That was my biggest cash game error - I'd leave when I was winning. You gotta have the + fifty bb days to make up for the week-long droughts.

But trnys are weird. You have to get a lucky seat and then you have to get another one at whatever table they move you to. So it's like a lottery, kind of, but with better odds.

[Wetdog]

I played a $1 MTT once, my first, and cashed for a whopping $1.68. I knew then that two hours work wasn't worth 68 cents but the experience was helpful to learn the game better. The next one I played was the $5 which I won. The experience of hand reading opponents (who's loose, do I have him board locked?) was what I took away most.

Last night I played the 04:45 $8.80 and came in second. Lots of loose gambloors who 2 and 3 bet 4th with open pairs.

[Andy B]

Again, why is this a question?

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have the most trouble in the first and last hours of a trny. This hand, which I included the results for, is an example of when I don't know what the optimal play is. A few hands into one of these, it becomes obvious that some are going to play really bad starting hands. One guy played QK2 later on. In a cash game, I think you just stay tight, but in these trnys, I watch these guys go out and give away their chips to my opponents while I wait for decent hands.

I was sorely tempted to call here. I am wondering if there is some specific early, loose mtt strategy for starting hands where you know you will get multiple limpers, many of whom will play any wheel card in the door? The $10 trny plays very differently.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny you should ask this today prax since I've just had my first instructional razz video released by Stoxpoker this week, and I deal with this exact question. Even better, Stox has been posting free previews for new videos in the Stoxpoker forum so you guys can go check out the first 3 minutes over there.

I completely agree with your concern that by playing tight in the early stages of a tourney you miss out on the chance to collect chips from the players who have no idea how to play, and even worse your opponents who are lucky enough to catch hands early will build much bigger stacks than you. That's why I recommend a "fish 'n chips" strategy in the first 2 levels of a tourney so you can separate the "fish" from their chips while they still have some! The hand you post is good example of where to use it, where you can limp in to close the action with a "two card" hand realizing that your opponents probably don't have premium hole cards and may start giving away chips later in the hand. The beauty is this technique works in tourneys from the $1 buy-in, to an FTOPS satellite, to the WSOP.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with your concern that by playing tight in the early stages of a tourney you miss out on the chance to collect chips from the players who have no idea how to play, and even worse your opponents who are lucky enough to catch hands early will build much bigger stacks than you. That's why I recommend a "fish 'n chips" strategy in the first 2 levels of a tourney so you can separate the "fish" from their chips while they still have some! The hand you post is good example of where to use it, where you can limp in to close the action with a "two card" hand realizing that your opponents probably don't have premium hole cards and may start giving away chips later in the hand. The beauty is this technique works in tourneys from the $1 buy-in, to an FTOPS satellite, to the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, SG, this is just the info I was looking for. Sometimes you get a table of serious Razz players and sometimes you get these crazy guys.

I know in a cash game, loose players at micro levels will play junk, but I don't think loosening up is good strategy (maybe you disagree). The whole beauty of cash is you have the time to come in with your very good hands and get them to bet the junk they have been p;laying against each other and winning with J hi and you can take pots with real confidence.

But trnys have parameters you must work within, so, I'm thinking that strategies have to change with table character - I can't just go find the fish table or decide not to play. Well, not for long.

I'm trying this tonight if I get another set of these bizarre players. Do you have a set of recommendations for this kind of play? Any two wheels no matter the other card? Or any three below J?