HU BLUFFING 1/2

sc000t · #1 10-02-2007, 11:43 PM

Ok villian I pressume is a typical NLHE player trying out PLO. Never seen him before on the HU PLO tables and hes sitting at 3/6, 2/4, and 1/2 with full buyins waiting. I search him to see if hes on any other tables and hes playing 1/2 HU NLHE also. So I sit and feel him out. He plays AAxx horrible and 3bets pre and fires flop/turn into a scarey board of 7493r w/ AAK2. Generally, has some holes in his HU PLO game. We've played about 60 hands so far, he's 3bet about 15% of by button raises. He showed down AA twice and stacked me once in a 3bet pot where I turned a 6789T straight w/ 6Txx and he had the JTQ5.

Other than that, no specific reads on his lines. Shown a tendancy to bet a made had down instead of get tricky with check/raises. Also, he didn't stack off when we both turned the nut straight and he had no redraw and b/c the turn and c/c the river board when it paired and I vb.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($201.50)
BB ($442.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $6, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($12) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $10, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($32) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero raises to $46, BB calls $34.

River: ($124) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets/checks like a girl?

mixmastermattyk · #2 10-03-2007, 01:02 AM

Given the last bit of your post makes me think twice about betting here:

[ QUOTE ]
Also, he didn't stack off when we both turned the nut straight and he had no redraw and b/c the turn and c/c the river board when it paired and I vb.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, as you're obviously well aware, we have no chance of winning the pot without a bet (ldo). Are we representing the nut straight with our turn raise? I assume so. If so, how much would we value bet the paired river with the straight - or how much does he think we will?

The flop donk looks a lot like AQxx or A4xx with nut spades. If we think he'll lay down top two on the river then bet, which I think is a significant chance. However, if he's likely to look us up with AQ in this spot (obviously depends on his tendencies and how aggressive you've been playing/showing down bluffs) then it might just be wise to give up in this spot. On the other hand, I think it helps our metagame if he looks us up and we have a bluff - it will definitely aid our image in the long run so that leads me more to bet.

All in all, although your last note makes me a little concerned, I think I bet this most of the time, probably around 2/3 - 3/4 pot bet. If we get a fold - terrific, if he does look us up - it will allow us to value bet the crap out of him in future situations and raise the nuts on the turn and have him look us up.

Also - I feel really stupid asking this as I play on Stars a fair bit, but where are the HU Omaha tables??? I can't seem to see them in the regular lobby?

sqwisssssss · #3 10-03-2007, 01:33 AM

well, you played it like you made a straight on the turn. he called and the board paired on the river. he checked into you so its very likely he doesnt have a full house.

so, with that being said, bet-bluff the same amount you would normally bet with if you really had the straight. i know i would make a 1/2 pot size bet there.......if i really did have broadway.

the play in my opinion has a "win win" attatched to it. if villan folds, you win. if he looks you up, you just paid for a slave.

he will keep you well fed when you really do have the winners down the road.

sc000t · #4 10-03-2007, 01:34 AM

Heres the hand where we split with a nut straight. This was early in the match so it could of been my opponent feeling me out and wanting to see what I showdown and how I played. I personally think he just took the safe line and was playing to see a safe river card and go for a c/r. Board paired and he elected to c/c and not turn his hand into a bluff. Thats my read on this hand at least.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($297)
BB ($345.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $6, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($12) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($12) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $11.5, Hero raises to $36, BB calls $24.50.

River: ($84) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $40, BB calls $40.

Final Pot: $164

Results in white below: 
BB has 6s 4c 7h 8c (straight, nine high).

Outcome: Hero wins $82. BB wins $82. 

As far as my image goes, it should be very solid. I haven't shown down a bluff and I haven't had any obvious check/call, check/call, check/fold lines where it looks like I'm a passive fish chasing. I've c/r him with solid hands and got him all in on turns needing to hit (which he did) and the other big hand was the 3bet pot where I got coolered with second nut straigt vs nut straight on turn. So if he's been looking up my hands I've showdown then my play should look solid w/o anything crazy.

The HU PLO tables are at the bottom of the limits listed on stars. They are between the Play money tables (if you have them viewable and the micro .01/.02 limits. Same goes for NLHE as well.

Perestroika · #5 10-03-2007, 03:08 AM

This seems pretty standard and obvious to all I imagine but when analyzing this you have to be aware of what you are "representing" and what the villain's most likely holdings are. Players LOVE to call. That is one of the primary reasons that players like us can make money....by value betting hands, of course strong players also make timely bluffs so back to the situation.

1) And I think most important, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY against a player who may not know the game that great, *what is his weighted distribution*. Players tend to pay off too much even in the face of *obvious* hands, and many times do not consider your play in the context of the interrelationship of your betting. They say, oh I has two pairs easy call. So what is his most likely holdings, we can get to what he thinks you have in a second. He leads the flop, and is smooth called, then makes a very weak turn bet. THIS IS UBER PLAYER DEPENDENT. He can show up with scared AJ, pair + flush draw a certain percentage of the time. How often will be based on his past play.

We narrow his holdings a little on the turn when we raise and he just calls. I do not believe this situation is similar to the last hand as their was a draw that was turned rather than flopped and I think he believes it less likely that you are raising solely on a diamond draw/2p type hand. In this spot I think he would reraise if he had KT. So how often was he leading is a good question? Leading I would say more likely than not, from your average player tends to be a draw though your holding two spades reduces somewhat the chances of him holding spades.

2. Now we can get to, what are you representing. We know you are representing the straight, but given your play thus far is he more likely to believe you? Have you been double barreling, or catching good hands that he has been folding? The higher and higher these two frequencies have happened recently, the less and less you should be bluffing against a non-thinking random.

I personally think you should have passed on the flop. Unless you knew exactly where you stood, even with position I do not like your call on the flop because you will find yourself in these spots too often having to bluff to win. If you could narrow his holdings down from his flop lead, i.e- he doesnt lead draws etc. etc. I like this call but obviously you do not. Just think of the turn cards that you want to see? Not many.

I still think a small bet maybe 1/4th pot is alright. The only reason I say this is because he *might* just have a draw with a smaller pair or king hi and we def don't want to check that down, also you get decent advertising and given your turn raise. He MAY fold a hand like A4 which would also be a strong outcome.

The overall problem hinges largely on the fact that you have no real *idea* where you are in the hand and bluffing a large amount I feel is spew. If he has no pair or a very weak one such as just a queen then his hand is almost certainly a busted flush draw and you do not need to bet larger. If not I think the change in his folding percentage does not change enough to justify the more expensive 3/4ths or PSB.

Lets say he has 4 hands:

1) missed flush draw
2) strong two pair AQ/AK
3) straight
4) Full house

The only gray area is whether or not he will fold #2 to a strong bet. With the rest a small bet will be reacted to equally, calls from 2 and 3, and either call or raise from 4, fold from 1. A PSB on the other hand still gets calls from 3 and 4 and a fold from 1 but #2 might might might pass. This I think is where the decision lies. How likely is he to have #2 and how likely is he to pass?

wazz · #6 10-03-2007, 05:18 AM

He's either check-calling, check-folding or checkraising any bet size here, so if you're gonna bluff, you can keep it fairly small. I doubt full pot gets him to lay down the straight so just try to get him to fold aces up. Bet like $45.

jbird · #7 10-03-2007, 10:13 AM

I find that when players like this donk the flop it is nearly always a flush draw with maybe a little bit extra.

I think a bet here wins you the pot far more often than not.

As wazz said there is no need to go crazy with the amounts -- a nice valuebet will do the trick.

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