Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Other Poker > Stud

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-01-2007, 02:25 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Razz R Us
Posts: 831
Default Re: Interesting hand?

[ QUOTE ]
I know you keep saying "you win at the top and lose at the bottom" but it's just an aphorism. It isn't exactly distilled truth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me rephrase. "Good players win at the top and lose at the bottom." And I do believe if you researched your own results you would see it is "distillable."

678 is just not a playable hand except in special circumstances. Like every card showing is a 9 or worse. Or you are stealing. And it's a crappy steal hand. I never said A2J was better - but on the whole I'd rather be the bring-in you are stealing from than holding 678.

Let's say you have (86)7 vs my xxJ and the hand goes like this:

8673
xxJ6

Are you betting? I am calling.

86739
xxJ68

I will bet or raise here.

867394
xxJ685

I'm still calling. I might raise if you take your time deciding. I would think you might have me beat - or maybe not. If I know you play 8s, I have that noted. But I have the draw. I might have the hand right now. I might not. But this isn't about me and my Jack - it's about you not having an exit from this hand. If you get an A or a 2, you can make that 7 and beat me if I don't get a 4 or a 3.

The problem is, when you are in a steal position, I will not give you credit for much better than a 9 or 8. I might even consider that I have the better hand. When your 678 becomes very marginal, you won't get an A2J to fold, you'll have to keep putting money in. I'd say it's high time we both caught a brick. Let's see what happens then:

867394J
xxJ685x<--it's a Q

What do you think you'd think? Would you really put an anonymous opponent on A2 in the hole? When you have gone so far you will call when I bet? When are you laying down 87643 on the river?

See, it isn't about probabilities here; this hand simply does not play well. Having a big brick is great, it provides a lot of getting out options when you catch more small cards. The J is going to lose less more often and win more less often. But it is very likely to win a lot more.

It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-01-2007, 06:49 AM
roggles roggles is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Default Re: Interesting hand?

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's because people are bad players. You can call if you think your opponent is stealing (no, not with an 8 low, but with another paint card in his hand). I don't know if I think it's worth it, because you have no way of knowing.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-01-2007, 09:47 AM
Sp00n Sp00n is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 181
Default Re: Interesting hand?

Please close this thread

Calling a blatant steal attempt with A2J vs xx8 is reasonable. If I complete my xx8 in the situation shown, you should ALWAYS fold, without question, no dicussion yada yada.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-01-2007, 09:54 AM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,380
Default Re: Interesting hand?

Yes, if you call me with a J I am going to put you on 2 small cards. Not neccessarily A2 but as long as I don't think you have a 7 or a pair I know I'm behind. No I am not going to bet 6th in your example. I might not even bet 5th. Why? Because I know my odds in these situations. Yes, I am probably going to call you down (because I have the odds to do so)

But your example doesn't prove a thing, because it's practically the remotest case possible.

Oh, and your call on 4th is pretty bad, too. You're still a 2:1 underdog.

[ QUOTE ]

It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's because you're getting good enough immediate odds to outflop them (on full tilt, but not on poker stars), if you combine the chances that they have a legitmate hand with the chances they are stealing.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-01-2007, 01:24 PM
2461Badugi 2461Badugi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Betting on Fourth Street
Posts: 1,808
Default Re: Interesting hand?

If playing eights gets you to generally give this much action, then I'm certainly doing it. If you're raising fifth in this spot, you're also doing it when I have (A6) and you're a 2:1 underdog.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-01-2007, 06:08 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Razz R Us
Posts: 831
Default Re: Interesting hand?

[ QUOTE ]
But your example doesn't prove a thing, because it's practically the remotest case possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, in a random possibility game, every case is as remote a possible case as every other one. I was only illustrating that it's easy to get trapped by such a hand. Whether or not a hand is likely to win if all seven cards are dealt to both players is something a simulator tells you. But how a hand plays is at least as important, IMO, in determining what I'm doing with it on 3rd.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-01-2007, 06:25 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,380
Default Re: Interesting hand?

[ QUOTE ]

Well, in a random possibility game, every case is as remote a possible case as every other one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my point. Except, the types of cases where A2J must either fold or incorrectly call are more numerous than the types you outline above. About twice as numerous. I really don't know what to say except maybe get out a deck of cards, deal out A2J vs 678 and remove 5 or 6 random dead cards (for the other player's up cards) and then start dealing 4ths 5ths etc and see what you'd do in each case, whether or not you'd like your hand.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-02-2007, 01:59 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Razz R Us
Posts: 831
Default Re: Interesting hand?

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't know what to say except maybe get out a deck of cards, deal out A2J vs 678 and remove 5 or 6 random dead cards (for the other player's up cards) and then start dealing 4ths 5ths etc and see what you'd do in each case, whether or not you'd like your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play Razz, Rusty. I'm already doing that every day - in "praxis." (Hence, obviously, the name) So are you, playing. More than I am, I am sure. Neither of us is posting our take on this hand through wild speculation. We just play differently. I like the way I play this just fine.

I fold all 87s unless on a steal or facing only 9 or worse on the board. I fold 'em all.

No wait - that's a lie. I once played 874 on a board with two 8s and a 7 and a bunch of paint. The 7 called. I won, too. A big pot, come to think of it. The 7 caught the case 8 on 4th and made a 876.

Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying: neither am I.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.