100/200 PLO on stars... do you get away from this?

[gordo16]

So I had been playing heads up with the villain in the hand, muchbetter, for about 30 minutes before the start of the hand. He had only bought in for 6k while I was sitting for 20k and through the first 30 minutes, I had gotten the impression that he was playing with scared money and over-protecting his hands, showing himsef to be capable of calling down in marginal situations, and always value betting big hands (i.e 2/3 of the pot bets, etc). Up until this hands, I had only seen him bluff at relatively small pots. Also before this hand, RealAndyBeal had just recently joined the the table and seemed to have riled up muchbetter with agressive, raise-every-hand type of play - quite the change to the rather slow, tight game we had been playing thus far.

One more note: I'm known as a very loose and agressive player from the 25/50 plo game on stars; most give me very little respect because I often put a lot of money in there on draws. That being said, I'm going to post a hand that cost me a lot of money. Given all of the information I gave, do you guys get away from this? If you do, when? What hand do you put him on during the flop, turn and then river?

POKERSTARS GAME #11853256433: OMAHA POT LIMIT ($100/$200) - 2007/09/03 - 16:58:22 (ET)
Table 'Hohensteina II' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 4: muchbetter ($38482 in chips)
Seat 5: gordo16 ($30658 in chips)
Seat 6: RealAndyBeal ($23578 in chips)
muchbetter: posts small blind $100
gordo16: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gordo16 [4c 6h 5d Tc]
RealAndyBeal: folds
muchbetter: raises $400 to $600
gordo16: calls $400
*** FLOP *** [Kc 3h 5c]
muchbetter: checks
gordo16: bets $1000
muchbetter: raises $1000 to $2000
gordo16: calls $1000
*** TURN *** [Kc 3h 5c] [9h]
muchbetter: bets $5198
gordo16: calls $5198
*** RIVER *** [Kc 3h 5c 9h] [5s]
muchbetter: bets $15594
gordo16: calls $15594
*** SHOW DOWN ***
muchbetter: shows [Kd Kh 6c Qd] (a full house, Kings full of Fives)
gordo16: mucks hand
muchbetter collected $46782 from pot
RealAndyBeal said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $46784 | Rake $2
Board [Kc 3h 5c 9h 5s]
Seat 4: muchbetter (small blind) showed [Kd Kh 6c Qd] and won ($46782) with a full house, Kings full of Fives
Seat 5: gordo16 (big blind) mucked [4c 6h 5d Tc]
Seat 6: RealAndyBeal (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[rine]

With your description in mind my first thought was "KK" after his turnbet. With his flop minraise he might also have clubs and not be too concerned. I'm not at all familiar with the game dynamics on this level but a riverfold seems ok.

[D0p3Ad1c7]

River Fold is correct %95 of the time imo =/

[PartyGirlUK]

Hang on so u think this guy is playing scared, only bluffing as small pots, then suddently he's gone spastic, c/r bluffing the flop after having the lead pre, then firing turn and river? Seems kinda an unlikely scenario. Also, you'll get better responses if you don't include results.

[TheRempel]

You said it yourself in your explanation of the hand, he'd only been bluffing at relatively small pots. Unless he is valuebetting worse you have to fold the river.

[jbird]

I'm surprised you didn't 3 bet flop after the minraise.

[gordo16]

Yeah, I realised I shouldn't have posted the result shortly after I wrote the post. Oh well, I'm not a big poster.. this hand has just been bothering me. It just killed me that he would min-raise the flop nuts; that was the only thing that makes me call the river. IMO, my flop and turn play is fine; I'm calling the turn as a slight dog, and although I don't have any implied odds to get paid if I hit, it's still a standard even-money call. While the river is probnably a bad call, it was his flop bet that kept me in the hand. Do any of you ever min-raise the nuts like that hoping to get paid later on in the hand? I just still can't get over the bizarrely out-of-character play on his part to pre-flop raise (unusual for him) then chech/min-raise me with the nuts. It just made absolutely no sense to me. I honestly dont think I had ever seen anyone play a hand this way aside from him, especially at these limits.

[FireStorm]

His flop min-raise is bizarre, but otherwise, this does look a lot like KK. You have to consider the possibility that your club draw is dead, and that you may lose some outs on the turn when the backdoor heart draw materializes. All these factors combined makes this a likely fold ... IMO he's not on a move when the board pairs on the river often enough to make calling pot profitable.

[jpg7n16]

I've seen people do it at .25/.50 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] lol

But then one buyin for me = 1/2 a small blind to you, so the level of play should be slightly different.

I think the thought process is "Flopped a great hand gotta c/r it, but don't want to scare him off, so I'll only raise min... turn oh crap there are two flush draws out, guess I'll bet it big since he called he's prob got a flush draw... river: nice I have a full house, I should bet big again."

[iggymcfly]

It does seem kinda weird for him to min-raise that particular hand, but it would be even weirder for him to min-raise a draw OOP. Normally, I'd think something like set+FD in this situation, although I doubt he's raising from the SB with 33 and there's only one combination to make a flush otherwise.

Anyway, while I've never regularly played higher than 5/10, I will say that I've never once seen a min-raise OOP with just a draw. It's either top set or set+FD the vast majority of the time, and occasionally total air from someone who wants to try a cheap bluff. Considering that this guy seems to be scared money on a short buy, it seems really unlikely that he's got air or is using some crazy 4th-level thinking to min-raise a draw because you'll think he has a set.

Anyway, make the flop Kh5c3c instead of Kc5c3h and I just fold the turn, but as is a call's fine. However, someone who's been playing nitty is absolutely not going to fire pot on the turn and river here with less than a boat. Calling the river's definitely a mistake as I'd guess you're good <10% of the time.