Wacky HU action, Lagtard vs Lagtard, river bluffraising

[DespotInExile]

How can this question be answered without knowing if Lagtard A has a showdownable hand like 88? It only makes sense to checkraise if you have a complete bluff, not if you have something to showdown.

The risk to bluff raising the river, particularly given the example you earlier gave, is that you will get re-reraised on a bluff, and you will fold a winner. Or you will call because of this risk, and you'll find yourself crushed/dead on the turn.

So if you have a showdownable hand against a Lagmonkey like this, check-call seems best.

[Grisgra]

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How can this question be answered without knowing if Lagtard A has a showdownable hand like 88? It only makes sense to checkraise if you have a complete bluff, not if you have something to showdown.

The risk to bluff raising the river, particularly given the example you earlier gave, is that you will get re-reraised on a bluff, and you will fold a winner. Or you will call because of this risk, and you'll find yourself crushed/dead on the turn.

So if you have a showdownable hand against a Lagmonkey like this, check-call seems best.

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Yer not paying attention. Nobody in this hand can possibly have 88. Either player is doing it with a monster or a bluff. We're not talking about showdownable hands like 88, we're talking about perhaps Lagtard B calling the river with Q-high or J-high instead of bluff-raising.

[cdlarmore]

WT...
As stands, maybe I can clear the statements up...

If i get into a hand with 62 or 92, i wont rr bluff these guys ever,our fold equity is very low, and it goes to showdown to often because they are call heavy regarding pot size like this.

Dont raise because we are counting on a sheer bluff to make us money against a completely ridiculous aggressive player who may rr 62, why put yourself in such a horid situation that your trying to win a huge bloated pot with a bluff against such a monster.


Its not hard to be a calling station given your reads and their betting action, namely insane.

p.s. read the poll, everyone agrees that rring bluff in either situation is trash.

[Grisgra]

I agree that this is a completely ridiculous situation, and that both players are over-aggro and silly.

However, I can't help but think that GIVEN THAT FACT, the chance that player A has a strong hand is less than 75%, and thus, it may be +EV for player B to raise. I think situations like this hand are a little deeper than "don't bluff a bluffer".

But I may be wrong. As some smart poster said, when it comes right down to it this is a math problem.

[gehrig]

if ur gonna bluff u should cap turn

u dont give him a chance to pair his JT, and u save a bet if he leads river

[Grisgra]

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if ur gonna bluff u should cap turn

u dont give him a chance to pair his JT, and u save a bet if he leads river

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Either player calls the turn with JT just in case this is a semibluff and he hits the 4/6 outer. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's what would happen between these two -- witness that K8o hand I described.

[gehrig]

what does that hand have to do with anything

the k8 calldown is pretty standard. the board is v drawy and the other guy's line doesnt really make sense for a strong hand. if u think that hand makes these guys insane enough to 3bet the turn with jack high no draw and then peel a cap, then i really dont think u have a good grasp of the language of heads up play

[Grisgra]

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what does that hand have to do with anything

the k8 calldown is pretty standard. the board is v drawy and the other guy's line doesnt really make sense for a strong hand. if u think that hand makes these guys insane enough to 3bet the turn with jack high no draw and then peel a cap, then i really dont think u have a good grasp of the language of heads up play

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I think the overall situation is relatively easy to describe. At this point, it's a pissing contest, in which every 3-5 hands each raise is seen as a dare for the other person to raise, and the other person knows it's a dare but also knows the other person knows that. Bleah!

And I don't think he 3-bet the turn with J-high no draw, I think he had some sort of ISD or flush draw (you were the one that brought up JTo).

For what little it's worth, player B raised the river, and A folded. Player B had a busted ISD -- I know this because I was him. I'm not proud of the river raise, but I think it may have been reasonable. (I'm definitely not proud of the way I played the rest of the hand, but I'm still working on my game against hyper-aggro players.)

By the way, given the donkey-like sure-to-be-crushed-if-he-played-higher-but-definitely-a-winner-at-this-level play of my opponent, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 2+2'er. If you recognize this hand, shoot me a PM [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[WillyT]

Grisga,

What were your hole cards?

[DrewOnTilt]

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Grisga,

What were your hole cards?

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Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

B bets, A calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

B bets, A raises, B raises, A calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

B bets.


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He said earlier in his examples that B/A had a busted inside straight draw, but was this on the flop? The only possible gutterball on the flop is 23 which made a wheel on the turn.

Grisga did you have something like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?